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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 05:23pm
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ASA Rule 8,2,M gives us the rules governing the double base. I believe I understand this as well as the next guy but I have one question regarding part 3, "an errant throw pulling the defense off the base into foul ground". I won't argue the merits of this rule. However, the only way I see this part of the rule coming into play is when the ball is coming from F5 or F2 from around the plate or possibly even from F9--a throw which misses toward the foul side of 1B. I can't imagine this part of the rule covering a routine throw from the short stop area. I understand what happens when the ball comes from foul territory and that is not part of the question. I only wonder about the fielder being pulled off the bag into foul territory by an errant throw. Any thoughts?
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 06:51pm
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This particular issue came up in the spring, and as I remember, the consensus was that on a throw that drew the fielder into foul territory, the fielder could not use the orange base as an extension. However, once the fielder got the ball in foul ground (and was not on the base), she could then use the orange.

Example: BR hits ground ball to F6, whose throw to 1B pulls F3 off the bag into foul territory. F6 can now use the orange base. I think this interpretation was based on the premise that the play was now coming from the foul side. A fast-thinking fielder would know to catch the ball off the base (in foul territory) and then touch the orange. Not a play we expect to see often.

However, I'm not sure anyone was certain that this interpretation was correct. Perhaps ASA will provide clarification.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 08:29pm
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Seems to me that the throw from F6 could pull the runner wide of the base but not necessarily into foul ground. Yeah, it could push her into foul but that seems far-fetched to me. I think this rule, if applied in that manner, gives the defense an advantage for making a bad throw. Furthermore it seems it could encourage more collisions with both defense and runner going for orange bag. The runner, properly going to the orange bag, would not have time to make the adjustment to the white on a close play. And that is also the problem if the throw is coming from foul territory. The ball would be coming from behind the runner and perhaps not visible to the runner so a decision could be made to go to the white. Yes, the runner can adjust off the defensive player covering 1B but there won't be a lot of time to adjust on what would be a close play.
I'm just glad we don't see this much. In fact, I don't believe I have ever seen the throw from F6 pulling the fielder into foul as the rule states. I have been asked this question by a coach and having never seen the rule applied I just need some help.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 08:36pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by greymule
This particular issue came up in the spring, and as I remember, the consensus was that on a throw that drew the fielder into foul territory, the fielder could not use the orange base as an extension. However, once the fielder got the ball in foul ground (and was not on the base), she could then use the orange.

Example: BR hits ground ball to F6, whose throw to 1B pulls F3 off the bag into foul territory. F6 can now use the orange base. I think this interpretation was based on the premise that the play was now coming from the foul side. A fast-thinking fielder would know to catch the ball off the base (in foul territory) and then touch the orange. Not a play we expect to see often.

However, I'm not sure anyone was certain that this interpretation was correct. Perhaps ASA will provide clarification.
Actually, this came up in the spring of 2002 because I saw Henry Pollard in June of that year and specifically asked him to define an "errant throw" in direct relation to this portion of the rule. My point was if you allowed the fielder to stretch for a wide throw and use the colored portion of the bag, it defeated the purpose of the rule.

Henry explained that an "errant throw" was a throw which the defender could not reach or catch. IOW, if the fielder does not allow the thrown to get by him/her, it is not an errant throw and the fielder must use the white portion of the base unless the throw came from the foul side of the 1st base line.

Grey's example and explanation is correct.
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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 09:54pm
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Grey's example and explanation is correct.

Unfortunately, now I'm confused. In my example, the throw didn't get past the fielder. So was touching the orange base legal because the throw was still "errant," that is, the fielder had to leave the base to prevent it from getting by?

Another item of interest regarding the safety base:

In researching ASA-NSA differences, I came across this from NSA:

"1st base double base. At facilities that use the safety bag at first base, the following rules will be implemented. If the first play is at first base, either from the infield or outfield, a runner will be called out for touching the inside base. If the play is elsewhere, the inside base may be tagged in a continuation toward second (2nd) base. The runner running toward first (1st) base may cross over to the inside bag to avoid a collision if a wild throw occurs. The inside bag will be used by the batter/runner/runner if attempting to get back to first (1st) base."

Wow. Out for touching the inside base. And only the first play counts, apparently not the tail end of a DP.

I can think of several plays I'd hate to have to interpret.

Good thing that after they mentioned 1st base and then first base, they used parentheses to remind the reader in the rest of the paragraph that first means the same thing as 1st.


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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 10:21pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by greymule
Grey's example and explanation is correct.

Unfortunately, now I'm confused. In my example, the throw didn't get past the fielder. So was touching the orange base legal because the throw was still "errant," that is, the fielder had to leave the base to prevent it from getting by?

Grey,

Sorry, I read your post as I have learned to read the rule. When you stated that the throw pulled F1 into foul territory, I assumed you meant that the same as I've been instructed to interpret the rule.

That would be a pretty neat "technical" trick to step off the base in foul territory to catch a ball and then just tag the colored portion. You don't think that would create too many arguments, do you?

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Old Tue Oct 14, 2003, 10:51pm
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Yes, a fielder who obviously steps into foul territory off the bag just so she can then place her foot on the orange part on the theory that the play is now coming from the foul side would be courting trouble. Of course, it would be pretty tough to think that fast, and probably easier just to stay on the white. And yes, you would get an argument.

But in the end, if the fielder has to leave the base and go into foul territory to catch the throw, can that fielder then touch the orange? Or does the throw actually have to get by to be considered errant?

And what about F3 jumping up and backward to snag a wild throw and coming down on the orange? Since the ball didn't get by, I guess that's not an out.

On the following play, I've called an out: ground ball (fair) to F3 bounces off her leg into foul territory. F3 then picks up the ball and, from foul ground, touches the orange. I hope I've been calling that one correctly.
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Old Wed Oct 15, 2003, 06:25am
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Quote:
Originally posted by greymule
Yes, a fielder who obviously steps into foul territory off the bag just so she can then place her foot on the orange part on the theory that the play is now coming from the foul side would be courting trouble. Of course, it would be pretty tough to think that fast, and probably easier just to stay on the white. And yes, you would get an argument.

But in the end, if the fielder has to leave the base and go into foul territory to catch the throw, can that fielder then touch the orange? Or does the throw actually have to get by to be considered errant?

And what about F3 jumping up and backward to snag a wild throw and coming down on the orange? Since the ball didn't get by, I guess that's not an out.

On the following play, I've called an out: ground ball (fair) to F3 bounces off her leg into foul territory. F3 then picks up the ball and, from foul ground, touches the orange. I hope I've been calling that one correctly.
I believe the big dollars come into play there and we would have to use our judgment.

Personally, if we force the fielder to return to the white portion, we could be putting both players on a collision course.

I would like to think that if the throw truly pulled the fielder away from the play, then yes, I would allow them to return to the colored portion to attempt to put out the BR. If the fielder was reaching/stretching for the throw and just lost contact with either side, but was still within the vicinity of the base, they will not benefit from the existence of the double base for the purpose of putting out the runner.
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Old Wed Oct 15, 2003, 08:16am
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Double-base confusion

Quote:
Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

I believe the big dollars come into play there and we would have to use our judgment.

Personally, if we force the fielder to return to the white portion, we could be putting both players on a collision course.

I would like to think that if the throw truly pulled the fielder away from the play, then yes, I would allow them to return to the colored portion to attempt to put out the BR. If the fielder was reaching/stretching for the throw and just lost contact with either side, but was still within the vicinity of the base, they will not benefit from the existence of the double base for the purpose of putting out the runner.
I thought I understood this until I read an article in the Sept 2003 Referee (page 50). The author was talking about ASA interpretation when he wrote, "When a poor throw pulls a fielder into foul territory ... the fielder is allowed to use either the white or colored portion of the base." Personally, I like your interpretation, Mike. I'm not going to penalize the offense by giving the F3 both sides to catch a high or wide throw from fair territory. Although I may get an argument from a defensive coach who has read ASA 8-2.M(3) or subscribes to Referee.

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Old Wed Oct 15, 2003, 10:56am
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As blue, I've seen this once or twice on a booted grounder to the pitcher that goes foul, and it retrieved by catcher or pitcher then firing to first from foul ground.

However, as player, on the field we play on, I've gotten 3 outs on the orange bag this year already. I play 1B, and the dugout is about 15 feet away, raised on about 18 inches of concrete. My shortstop has a gun, but it's a shotgun sometimes. Several times, he's fired wide, but the carom from the base of the dugout is perfect. 3 times so far, it's come right back to me, with my foot on the orange. When I see it going wide, I immediately step to the orange and reach, hoping it comes right back, which it does sometimes.
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Old Wed Oct 15, 2003, 12:06pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mbcrowder
As blue, I've seen this once or twice on a booted grounder to the pitcher that goes foul, and it retrieved by catcher or pitcher then firing to first from foul ground.

However, as player, on the field we play on, I've gotten 3 outs on the orange bag this year already. I play 1B, and the dugout is about 15 feet away, raised on about 18 inches of concrete. My shortstop has a gun, but it's a shotgun sometimes. Several times, he's fired wide, but the carom from the base of the dugout is perfect. 3 times so far, it's come right back to me, with my foot on the orange. When I see it going wide, I immediately step to the orange and reach, hoping it comes right back, which it does sometimes.
Guess what, Mike? You're not getting that call from me as the play did not come from foul territory and you were not coming back to the bag with the ball. And if you were on the bag, the "errant" throw obviously didn't pull you into foul territory.

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Old Wed Oct 15, 2003, 12:07pm
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I am glad I work in Canada. The double base only comes in play the first time by and the defence is not allowed to use the orange part. No arguements about where the throw came from.
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Old Wed Oct 15, 2003, 12:50pm
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Interesting way of looking at it, Irish. It's never been questioned at all.

I think the intent of reversing things on a ball that goes into foul ground is for safety (it's called the safety bag for a reason, right?) If I'm catching a ball that's coming to me from the foul side of the bag, isn't it generally safer for me to use the orange, and BR the white - otherwise, if it's close, one of us is going to break an ankle.

Also, it may be that the "THROW" didn't come from foul ground, but the "Play" definitely did. Seems like your splitting hairs here in a way that defies the intent of the rule, if not the letter.

Don't have a book here - anyone have the direct quote from the book?
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Old Wed Oct 15, 2003, 02:12pm
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and the book says ...

Quote:
Originally posted by mbcrowder
Don't have a book here - anyone have the direct quote from the book?
ASA 2003 Rule 8 Section 2-M(3):

"On any force out attempt from the foul side of first base, or an errant throw pulling the defense off the base into foul ground, the defense and the batter-runner can use either the white or colored portion."

Room for quibbling here, for sure. My call would be -- you can use the colored side if a throw is coming from foul ground, or you go get it and bring it back to the colored side.
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Old Wed Oct 15, 2003, 02:39pm
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Of course, the BR is technically not a force out at 1B.
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