The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 12, 2018, 10:32am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 145
Missed Base With Bases Loaded

The bases are loaded with one out when the batter hits safely to the outfield. R3 touches the plate. R2 misses third base and touches the plate. R1 is tagged out between second and third. The defense then appeals that R2 missed third base.

My question: Is the appeal of R2 missing third base still considered a force out, even though a following runner, R1, was declared out before the appeal was made?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 12, 2018, 11:25am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,380
I think there are conflicting interpretations of that, but my thinking is that because the runner missed the base she was forced to advance while the force was still on, then her appealed out counts as a force out. If it didn't, you'd have runners behind her purposely violate rules (e.g., commit a look back violation) to remove the force and allow the run.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 12, 2018, 12:28pm
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,380
FWIW, here's an NFHS case play that supports my premise, and is very similar to your play:

Quote:
9.1.1 SITUATION K:

With R1 on third base, R2 on second base and R3 on first base and one out, B5 hits safely to right field. R1 scores, R2 misses third base and scores. R3 is thrown out at third base. At the end of playing action the defensive team makes a dead-ball appeal that R2 missed third on her way home. The umpire declares R2 out. How many runs score?

RULING: No runs score since the put-out of R2 at third base was a force out and also the third out of the inning. (9-1-1 Exception d)
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 12, 2018, 12:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 1,640
For USA the appeal is considered at the time of the appeal, not the time of the infraction. So, for them, this is not a force out.

For NFHS it is, because you consider the appeal to be at the time of the infraction.

I haven't done a point by point comparison for ALL rule sets, but I think that USA might be the lone organization to call it this way.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 12, 2018, 12:49pm
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
For USA the appeal is considered at the time of the appeal, not the time of the infraction. So, for them, this is not a force out.

For NFHS it is, because you consider the appeal to be at the time of the infraction.

I haven't done a point by point comparison for ALL rule sets, but I think that USA might be the lone organization to call it this way.
I knew there was at least one "rogue" alphabet that felt this way. Thanks for clarifying.

Here's an NCAA Softball case play that supports the force out appeal:

Quote:
A.R. 7-2. With runners on first and third bases and one out, the batter hits a ball down the foul line that rolls all the way to the home run fence. The runner from third apparently scores, the trailing runner arrives safely at third base, but misses second base and the batter-runner misses first base, but safely slides into second base. The defense appeals the two missed bases but does it matter which order they appeal in order to negate the run?
RULING: No, it does not matter because both missed bases were force outs. It is obvious if the lead runner’s missed base was appealed before the batter-runner, they would both be force outs but even if the appeals were in the opposite order, the result would be the same. The fact that the base runner from first base was forced to advance at the time she missed the base, makes her out a force as well. With both outs being forces, the run does not score. Note: If a runner is forced to advance at the moment the base is missed, an appeal of that base will always be a force out, but if the base missed was beyond the base to which she was forced, it is a timing play.
(Rules 7.1.1.2, 6.2.3.1, 7.1.1.2.7, 12.10.2 and 14.6.1.3)
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 17, 2018, 12:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
For USA the appeal is considered at the time of the appeal, not the time of the infraction. So, for them, this is not a force out.
This is not actually true. Read the Point of Emphasis regarding third out appeals. It clearly states that a missed base remains a force out if appealed. The "time of the appeal" comes into play only when a succeeding runner is retired prior to reaching the base to which he was forced, removing the force out. The force was not removed when the runner was retired AFTER reaching the base to which he was forced. The force would have only been removed if he were retired BEFORE reaching second base.

Last edited by EricH; Tue Apr 17, 2018 at 12:05pm.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 17, 2018, 12:05pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
This is not actually true. Read the Point of Emphasis regarding third out appeals. It clearly states that a missed base remains a force out if appealed. The "time of the appeal" comes into play only when a succeeding runner is retired, removing the force out. The force was not removed when the runner was retired AFTER reaching the base to which he was forced. The force would have only been removed if he were retired BEFORE reaching second base.
R1 was out before the appeal.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 18, 2018, 08:36am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
This is not actually true. Read the Point of Emphasis regarding third out appeals. It clearly states that a missed base remains a force out if appealed. The "time of the appeal" comes into play only when a succeeding runner is retired prior to reaching the base to which he was forced, removing the force out. The force was not removed when the runner was retired AFTER reaching the base to which he was forced. The force would have only been removed if he were retired BEFORE reaching second base.
Actually, it is true.

The RS being quoted by BretMan was added in 2004. BTW, USA/ASA hasn't used the term "Point of Emphasis" since 2006.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 18, 2018, 04:47pm
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,380
FWIW, here's a USA Softball case play from May 2009:

Quote:
Does the Run Count? R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B and R3 on 1B with two outs, B6 hits a shot into right centerfield. R1, R2 and R3 score before B6 is thrown out at 2B for the third out. F5 yells that R2 missed 3B and ask for a fourth-out appeal. The umpire rules R2 out on a fourth-out appeal and declares the force back into effect and no runs score.

Ruling umpire’s ruling was incorrect, here’s why.

The fourth-out appeal is correct because Rule 5, Section 5, C stipulates, “no run shall score if a “fourth out” is the result of an appeal of a base missed or left too soon on a runner who has scored.” Therefore R2 can be properly appealed and called out as the umpire ruled.

However, the force out is incorrect. Rule 1, Definitions, Force Out: An out which may be made only when a runner loses the right to the base that the runner is occupying because the batter becomes a batter-runner, and before the batter-runner or trailing runner has been put out.” Also according to Rule 5 Section 5B [1] “No run shall score if the third out of the inning is the result of a batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner. On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred.” On this play the force would not be in Effect, R2 would be called out on the fourth out appeal and R1 would score.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bases loaded walk fdt92 Softball 50 Sun Apr 22, 2018 08:11am
Bases loaded Homer, Missed Base, Runs? MD Longhorn Softball 28 Sat May 18, 2013 08:15am
Bases Loaded... mrm21711 Baseball 5 Mon May 29, 2006 05:09pm
Base on Balls Bases Loaded For the kids Softball 18 Wed Jun 30, 2004 09:44am
Missing base after bases loaded home run Hearls3 Baseball 1 Tue Dec 23, 2003 05:56pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:24am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1