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-   -   Missed Base With Bases Loaded (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/103758-missed-base-bases-loaded.html)

bbsbvb83 Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:32am

Missed Base With Bases Loaded
 
The bases are loaded with one out when the batter hits safely to the outfield. R3 touches the plate. R2 misses third base and touches the plate. R1 is tagged out between second and third. The defense then appeals that R2 missed third base.

My question: Is the appeal of R2 missing third base still considered a force out, even though a following runner, R1, was declared out before the appeal was made?

Manny A Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:25am

I think there are conflicting interpretations of that, but my thinking is that because the runner missed the base she was forced to advance while the force was still on, then her appealed out counts as a force out. If it didn't, you'd have runners behind her purposely violate rules (e.g., commit a look back violation) to remove the force and allow the run.

Manny A Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:28pm

FWIW, here's an NFHS case play that supports my premise, and is very similar to your play:

Quote:

9.1.1 SITUATION K:

With R1 on third base, R2 on second base and R3 on first base and one out, B5 hits safely to right field. R1 scores, R2 misses third base and scores. R3 is thrown out at third base. At the end of playing action the defensive team makes a dead-ball appeal that R2 missed third on her way home. The umpire declares R2 out. How many runs score?

RULING: No runs score since the put-out of R2 at third base was a force out and also the third out of the inning. (9-1-1 Exception d)

BretMan Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:36pm

For USA the appeal is considered at the time of the appeal, not the time of the infraction. So, for them, this is not a force out.

For NFHS it is, because you consider the appeal to be at the time of the infraction.

I haven't done a point by point comparison for ALL rule sets, but I think that USA might be the lone organization to call it this way.

Manny A Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BretMan (Post 1020716)
For USA the appeal is considered at the time of the appeal, not the time of the infraction. So, for them, this is not a force out.

For NFHS it is, because you consider the appeal to be at the time of the infraction.

I haven't done a point by point comparison for ALL rule sets, but I think that USA might be the lone organization to call it this way.

I knew there was at least one "rogue" alphabet that felt this way. Thanks for clarifying.

Here's an NCAA Softball case play that supports the force out appeal:

Quote:

A.R. 7-2. With runners on first and third bases and one out, the batter hits a ball down the foul line that rolls all the way to the home run fence. The runner from third apparently scores, the trailing runner arrives safely at third base, but misses second base and the batter-runner misses first base, but safely slides into second base. The defense appeals the two missed bases but does it matter which order they appeal in order to negate the run?
RULING: No, it does not matter because both missed bases were force outs. It is obvious if the lead runner’s missed base was appealed before the batter-runner, they would both be force outs but even if the appeals were in the opposite order, the result would be the same. The fact that the base runner from first base was forced to advance at the time she missed the base, makes her out a force as well. With both outs being forces, the run does not score. Note: If a runner is forced to advance at the moment the base is missed, an appeal of that base will always be a force out, but if the base missed was beyond the base to which she was forced, it is a timing play.
(Rules 7.1.1.2, 6.2.3.1, 7.1.1.2.7, 12.10.2 and 14.6.1.3)

EricH Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BretMan (Post 1020716)
For USA the appeal is considered at the time of the appeal, not the time of the infraction. So, for them, this is not a force out.

This is not actually true. Read the Point of Emphasis regarding third out appeals. It clearly states that a missed base remains a force out if appealed. The "time of the appeal" comes into play only when a succeeding runner is retired prior to reaching the base to which he was forced, removing the force out. The force was not removed when the runner was retired AFTER reaching the base to which he was forced. The force would have only been removed if he were retired BEFORE reaching second base.

CecilOne Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1020855)
This is not actually true. Read the Point of Emphasis regarding third out appeals. It clearly states that a missed base remains a force out if appealed. The "time of the appeal" comes into play only when a succeeding runner is retired, removing the force out. The force was not removed when the runner was retired AFTER reaching the base to which he was forced. The force would have only been removed if he were retired BEFORE reaching second base.

R1 was out before the appeal.

IRISHMAFIA Wed Apr 18, 2018 08:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1020855)
This is not actually true. Read the Point of Emphasis regarding third out appeals. It clearly states that a missed base remains a force out if appealed. The "time of the appeal" comes into play only when a succeeding runner is retired prior to reaching the base to which he was forced, removing the force out. The force was not removed when the runner was retired AFTER reaching the base to which he was forced. The force would have only been removed if he were retired BEFORE reaching second base.

Actually, it is true.

The RS being quoted by BretMan was added in 2004. BTW, USA/ASA hasn't used the term "Point of Emphasis" since 2006.

Manny A Wed Apr 18, 2018 04:47pm

FWIW, here's a USA Softball case play from May 2009:

Quote:

Does the Run Count? R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B and R3 on 1B with two outs, B6 hits a shot into right centerfield. R1, R2 and R3 score before B6 is thrown out at 2B for the third out. F5 yells that R2 missed 3B and ask for a fourth-out appeal. The umpire rules R2 out on a fourth-out appeal and declares the force back into effect and no runs score.

Ruling umpire’s ruling was incorrect, here’s why.

The fourth-out appeal is correct because Rule 5, Section 5, C stipulates, “no run shall score if a “fourth out” is the result of an appeal of a base missed or left too soon on a runner who has scored.” Therefore R2 can be properly appealed and called out as the umpire ruled.

However, the force out is incorrect. Rule 1, Definitions, Force Out: An out which may be made only when a runner loses the right to the base that the runner is occupying because the batter becomes a batter-runner, and before the batter-runner or trailing runner has been put out.” Also according to Rule 5 Section 5B [1] “No run shall score if the third out of the inning is the result of a batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner. On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred.” On this play the force would not be in Effect, R2 would be called out on the fourth out appeal and R1 would score.


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