Appeal play question

[Dave9819]

Ruleset: USA Softball (ASA)

Situation:

2 outs, runner on 1st and 3rd. Batter hits ball to outfield and reaches first base safely, runner for 3rd scores. Runner from 1st goes to 3rd but does not touch 2nd base.

After the play is over, defense properly appears runner missing 2nd base. Runner is called out.

My question is, since the runner was forced to 2nd base due to batter becoming batter runner, does the runner missing 2nd base and being called out on appeal fall under the situation that a run cannot score if the 3rd out of an inning is due to a force out?

Thanks!

[Manny A]

Correct. Run does not score.

[jamesshank]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Correct. Run does not score.

I'm not sure that is correct, because once the runner missed second, she could still go back and touch it before the appeal and is no longer forced to second once it becomes an appeal play. Someone more knowledgeable than me will hopefully come in.

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[youngump]

Originally Posted by jamesshank

I'm not sure that is correct, because once the runner missed second, she could still go back and touch it before the appeal and is no longer forced to second once it becomes an appeal play. Someone more knowledgeable than me will hopefully come in.

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That would be Manny and he came in before you. :-)

That said, to help correct your confusion here's a quick primer:

there are two kinds of outs for purpose of determining if runs score
Force Plays and Timing Plays
Either kind of out may be recorded during regular play or on appeal.

Appeals of force plays are still force plays. The force play must be a force at the time of the appeal. No run scores when the third out is the result of a force out.

Runs that score before appeals of timing plays count unless the runner called out was ahead of a scoring runner.

Examples:
Bases loaded, 1 outs. Ball hit to the outfield and the runner from second is thrown out at the plate. The runner from first missed second and is called out on appeal. No runs score.

Bases loaded, 1 outs. Ball hit to the outfield and the runner from second misses third. The runner from first missed second and is called out on appeal. Then the runner from from second is called out on appeal. 1 run scores. (He wasn't forced to third at the time of the appeal).

Bases loaded, 2 outs. Ball hit to the fence for an in the park home run. The runner from first misses third and is called out on appeal. 2 runs score. (BR can't score behind the 3rd out).

[jamesshank]

Originally Posted by youngump

That would be Manny and he came in before you. :-)

That said, to help correct your confusion here's a quick primer:

there are two kinds of outs for purpose of determining if runs score
Force Plays and Timing Plays
Either kind of out may be recorded during regular play or on appeal.

Appeals of force plays are still force plays. The force play must be a force at the time of the appeal. No run scores when the third out is the result of a force out.

Runs that score before appeals of timing plays count unless the runner called out was ahead of a scoring runner.

Examples:
Bases loaded, 1 outs. Ball hit to the outfield and the runner from second is thrown out at the plate. The runner from first missed second and is called out on appeal. No runs score.

Bases loaded, 1 outs. Ball hit to the outfield and the runner from second misses third. The runner from first missed second and is called out on appeal. Then the runner from from second is called out on appeal. 1 run scores. (He wasn't forced to third at the time of the appeal).

Bases loaded, 2 outs. Ball hit to the fence for an in the park home run. The runner from first misses third and is called out on appeal. 2 runs score. (BR can't score behind the 3rd out).

Thank you for the clarification and thanks Manny for not embarrassing me for my ignorance

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[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jamesshank

i'm not sure that is correct, because once the runner missed second, she could still go back and touch it before the appeal and is no longer forced to second once it becomes an appeal play. Someone more knowledgeable than me will hopefully come in.

Sent from my sm-n920v using tapatalk

5.5.b.1

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by jamesshank

I'm not sure that is correct, because once the runner missed second, she could still go back and touch it before the appeal and is no longer forced to second once it becomes an appeal play. Someone more knowledgeable than me will hopefully come in.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Why can't the runner who missed second go back and touch before the appeal
- while ball is still live
- after ball is dead, having reached 3rd

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by youngump

The force play must be a force at the time of the appeal.

Why is that a rule?

Isn't it just USA SB?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Why is that a rule?

Isn't it just USA SB?

Here's the play that would be affected without that statement.

With 1 out, R2 on 3rd, R3 on 1st. Batter singles to right; R2 scores, while R3 misses 2nd on the way to 3rd. F9 throws to 3rd; ball is cut off and BR/R4 is thrown out at 2nd for the 2nd out. Defense requests time, and appeals that R3 missed 2nd base; 3rd out. Does the run score?

If the rule is a force at the time of the miss, this WAS a force out; no run scores. If the rule is a force at the time of the appeal, the run scores, as the trailing runner was put out prior to the appeal.

IMO, at the time of the miss is the more appropriate rule. But someone with influence convinced at National Council to erase the force when this happens.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

IMO, at the time of the miss is the more appropriate rule. But someone with influence convinced at National Council to erase the force when this happens.

That is why I asked. And I guess why only USA SB.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Here's the play that would be affected without that statement.

With 1 out, R2 on 3rd, R3 on 1st. Batter singles to right; R2 scores, while R3 misses 2nd on the way to 3rd. F9 throws to 3rd; ball is cut off and BR/R4 is thrown out at 2nd for the 2nd out. Defense requests time, and appeals that R3 missed 2nd base; 3rd out. Does the run score?

If the rule is a force at the time of the miss, this WAS a force out; no run scores. If the rule is a force at the time of the appeal, the run scores, as the trailing runner was put out prior to the appeal.

IMO, at the time of the miss is the more appropriate rule. But someone with influence convinced at National Council to erase the force when this happens.

But, but, but, ... how can you EVER have R2 on 3rd???

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Here's the play that would be affected without that statement.

With 1 out, R2 on 3rd, R3 on 1st. Batter singles to right; R2 scores, while R3 misses 2nd on the way to 3rd. F9 throws to 3rd; ball is cut off and BR/R4 is thrown out at 2nd for the 2nd out. Defense requests time, and appeals that R3 missed 2nd base; 3rd out. Does the run score?

If the rule is a force at the time of the miss, this WAS a force out; no run scores. If the rule is a force at the time of the appeal, the run scores, as the trailing runner was put out prior to the appeal.

IMO, at the time of the miss is the more appropriate rule. But someone with influence convinced at National Council to erase the force when this happens.

IMO, USA has it right since if there was some reason to retreat, the base from which the runner was forced is now available for safe occupation. Their interpretation is consistent with the other rules of the game governing runners.