NCAA Rule Question - Appeal Play

[Durham]

Ok, on my iPhone so will copy and paste the rule later if need be, but I have a situation that I have argued for years. I will start by saying that I rule these situations the way that I have been told to, but I do not believe that the rule book supports them. This entire scenario is meant to see what others think and hopefully to prove me wrong and show me why in the NCAA rule book. The situations could vary, so I will just throw one of many out there.

R1 stealing on the pitch and B2 hits a ball into the right field gap. Think that the ball will be down R1 rounds 2nd and heads for 3rd when F8 makes a diving catch. F8 jumps to his feet and attempts to double off R1 at 1st. The throw is off the mark and goes into DBT. For ease sake, let's agree that the throw was just before R1 touched 2nd. The umpires call time and correctly award R1 3rd. R1 never retouched 1st, he touches 2nd and makes it to 3rd. Can the defense still appeal R1 leaving early?

Everyone I talk to says yes, but I disagree. The defense was appealing that R1 left early and he did. IMO, this is unmistakably an appeal play and an attempt to get him out before he can retouch. The defense also erred on the appeal. So why do we still let them appeal at 1st?

Thanks! Hope this makes us all think a little.

[justanotherblue]

Yes, the defense can appeal. The defense's err was during continous action of the play, throwing the ball out of play, not a post action appeal. Once the ball goes out of play, R1 is allowed to complete his base running responsibilities. That is he should have retouched 1B, then continued onto 2 and 3b. He left the appeal open by not fulfilling his baserunning responsibilities.

[johnnyg08]

Because 1B was the base he safely occupied at the time of the pitch. The same base that he is obligated to retouch even after the ball goes into DBT. It's a continuous action play. I see what you're saying...you're arguing that F8's "play" is throwing the ball to 1B, threw the ball out of play so the defense gives up their chance to appeal again because that was a play.

I understand your thinking, but I disagree. I think this deals with what J/R calls continuous action. Here's a portion of J/R that I think applies to your scenario:

(d) any appeal throw made after continuous action has ended does not become an overthrow. If continuous action ends and the defense overthrows trying to appeal some runner at
EG:
a base, a subsequent appeal on any runner at any base cannot be upheld. [NCAA8-6-b-5-b, 8-6-b-6] [NCAA5-4, 5- 4-a, 5-4-c Pen] [NFHS8-2 Pen., 2.29.6b]

[Durham]

If this were OBR, I would agree. But there is no mention of continuous action in any NCAA material. And the rule simply says if they err during an appeal, then they lose the right to appeal. Does it not?

[johnnyg08]

A point that is not covered in the NCAA rule book defers to OBR. Most interpretations are not found in the rule book which is why one can't umpire effectively if they only read the rule book. In fact, I'm not sure if the words "continuous action" appears in the OBR either.

[Dave Reed]

The term "errs" is not defined. NCAA rules use the term in connection with appeals twice:
8-6b
(3) The defensive team receives only one chance on an appeal. In the case of multiple appeals, if the defense errs during its first appeal attempt or any base runner advances, the defense loses its right to appeal any runner at any base.
and
(5) If the defensive team errs on an appeal play and the ball remains in live-ball territory, the appeal will be allowed if:
(a) The ball immediately is returned to the base being appealed; and
(b) No runners advance on the misplay. If a runner(s) advances, no appeal
shall be allowed.

So in NCAA, "errs" could mean an overthrow which goes into dead ball territory, but it can also mean one which stays in live ball territory.

Does "err" include overthrows made during continuous action? For OBR, clearly not, according to MLBUM 5.2 and the J/R passage johnnyg08 provided.

It is the same in NCAA, and we can see that based on the phrase "or any baserunner advances" in (3) above. In NCAA during continuous play, if the defense appeals one runner leaving early without error, but some other runner advances, we still allow additional appeals. But (3) says the defense loses the right to appeal any runner if a runner advances during the appeal, and that contradiction implies (3) only applies to after a break in the action.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by Durham

If this were OBR, I would agree. But there is no mention of continuous action in any NCAA material. And the rule simply says if they err during an appeal, then they lose the right to appeal. Does it not?

There is a passage in the NCAA rule book that says the rules are "essentially the same as for professional baseball". Once you take the rules differences out of the equation, if there is no NCAA AR, you apply the OBR AR's. This is one of those cases.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

There is a passage in the NCAA rule book that says the rules are "essentially the same as for professional baseball". Once you take the rules differences out of the equation, if there is no NCAA AR, you apply the OBR AR's. This is one of those cases.

If that is the case then that is good enough for me. My goal every game is to not lose a protest. I don't care if I had one every game, I just never want to lose one. It just stinks that we have an interp that isn't an AR in here some where. The reason being is that some time, you might have a protest committe that only has the rule book available to them and nothing else. So some obscure interp that the book doesn't even mention, such as continuous action, could bite someone one day and that sucks. I remember Jimmy teaching us about continuous action and I know it exists, but it is just sad that a book that until recent got reprinted every year and now every two years, doesn't contain a reference to it.

And as for the comment about the ineffectiveness of using only the rule book in ones umpiring, I have to very respectively disagree. I have worked with guys that barely pass rules tests every year and guys that know every piece of literature on the subject. The most effective umpires are simply those that know how to apply what they know, to whatever degree that is. It also is the basis for testing us, that and a few mechanics questions. And truth be told about mechanics, you learn those on the field and not the book.

[johnnyg08]

I see what you're saying...but when there are authoritative opinions, versus how one might apply the rule...it could vary widely. Being just a rule book umpire most of the time will get you through a lot of games and many years...but you talk about not wanting to lose a protest, then that's why you have AO's to support your ruling. How likely are you to lose your protest if you cite an AO from Fitzpatrick, or Paronto, or Evans...you won't...and yes, you won't find those in the rule book.

Remember, even if you'd happened to lose a protest...it doesn't always mean that you're wrong. It depends on where you're working and the level of ball you're working...I don't know where you umpire...but if your protest goes to some of the TD's that I read about on here, losing a protest might be an option...heck w/ some of the TD's I read about on on here, Hunter, Harry, or Jimmy could lose a protest.

[Durham]

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by Durham

F8 jumps to his feet and attempts to double off R1 at 1st. The throw is off the mark and goes into DBT. For ease sake, let's agree that the throw was just before R1 touched 2nd. The umpires call time and correctly award R1 3rd.

Shouldn't they have awarded him home (2 bases from location at TOT), then changed it to third when he corrected his running error?

[Durham]

You are correct sir, 2 bases from the ToT, for 1st throw by an outfielder.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by Durham

You are correct sir, 2 bases from the ToT, for 1st throw by an outfielder.

SO the correct call by the umpires would be "TIME! You -- home." Then, if he corrected himself by returning to 1B (in NCAA or OBR, that is -- Fed wouldn't allow the return to 1B), you fix it: "You -- third base."'

By not fixing it (as in the OP), he'd advance home. Defense could then appeal the leaving early at 1B.

[rcaverly]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

...heck w/ some of the TD's I read about on on here, Hunter, Harry, or Jimmy could lose a protest.

Just ask Tim McClelland.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by yawetag

SO the correct call by the umpires would be "TIME! You -- home." Then, if he corrected himself by returning to 1B (in NCAA or OBR, that is -- Fed wouldn't allow the return to 1B), you fix it: "You -- third base."'

By not fixing it (as in the OP), he'd advance home. Defense could then appeal the leaving early at 1B.

2 bases from last legally occupied ToT - he didn't legally occupy 2B. How can you award from there? If he legally occupied 2B how could he be illegal at 1B? By rule to be legal you must touch all bases in order...if I miss one, I'm not legal at the next one...