LL Play- Appeal Question

[lpneck]

Retired basketball official venturing over to the baseball side as a coach with a question on the interpretation for 2 plays.

These are under LL tournament rules, but I would be interested in knowing any differences under NFHS rules as well.

Play 1: Runners on 2nd and 3rd and a fly ball is hit to the CF. The CF catches the ball, and in attempting to take the ball out of his glove and transfer it to his throwing hand, he drops the ball. The 2B umpire (4 man crew) makes no signal. There is significant confusion, and the play continues. Both runners cross home plate (R3 tagged up, but R2, who went part way on the fly to center, did not go back and tag up once he saw the ball on the ground.) At the end of the play, the defense throws behind the batter/runner who has rounded 1B, and he is tagged and called out by the 1B umpire.

I was the defensive manager, and asked to go out to talk to the 2B umpire to find out if he had seen the CF make the catch and if not if he would ask any partners for help. The umpires got together, and basically said, "it doesn't matter, you retired the batter anyway." I obviously disagreed because we were going to appeal the play at 2nd base since the runner never tagged up. In real life, that was the end of the situation- there were 2 outs and 2 runs scored on the play.

So my question is this- what if the umpires had gotten together and ruled that it was a catch and the batter was out? Now, with no one on base and 2 outs, once the umpire makes the ball live we legally appeal to 2nd base and they call R2 out for leaving the base early. Does R3's run count? Or do both runs come off the board?

I'll put play 2 in a separate thread for easier discussion. Thank you!

[Rich Ives]

I can't tell from your post when the runner left the base. I would expect a runner on 2B to be on the base on a fly to CF. That said, the runner can leave the base as soon as the ball is touched. He doesn't need to wait for a completed catch.

R3's run would count as it scored before the appeal.

[lpneck]

R2 didn't tag- he went part way to 3rd on a medium-depth fly ball to CF. He started going back to 2nd base once the ball was in the CF's glove, but then when he dropped the ball on the transfer, he took off for 3rd and never went all the way back to the base.

In the end, they didn't rule it a catch, so it didn't matter and R2 scored.

Does the ball being live or dead matter on the run scoring? Let's just simplify the play for a minute without the confusion of no one knowing whether the umpires had ruled a catch.

Runners on 2nd and 3rd and 1 out. Flyball to CF that is caught for out #2. R3 tags up and crosses home plate. R2 does not tag up and advances to R3.

a.) The CF throws the ball to the SS who steps on 2B to appeal the play.
b.) The ball goes back to the pitcher. Time is never called. The pitcher steps off the rubber and throws the ball to the SS who steps on 2B.
c.) The ball goes back to the pitcher. The defensive coach asks for time and goes out to the mound to explain to the pitcher they are going to appeal and he needs to throw the ball to 2nd base. After the coach leaves the field, the umpire puts the ball in play, and the pitcher steps off the rubber and throws to the SS who steps on 2B.

Any differences in those plays? Or would the appeal always would have to occur before R3 crosses home plate in order to prevent that run from scoring?

BTW, this was the state semifinal game the day before the crazy scenario in the other play in the championship game.

[Altor]

The appeal play is a timing play. So R3 scores in all three scenarios assuming he crossed the plate before the appeal of R2. Obviously, since R2 would be out if the appeal is upheld, that run does not score. (missed that in the new scenario R2 stops at 3rd)

[lpneck]

Thank you!

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by lpneck

R2 didn't tag- he went part way to 3rd on a medium-depth fly ball to CF. He started going back to 2nd base once the ball was in the CF's glove, but then when he dropped the ball on the transfer, he took off for 3rd and never went all the way back to the base.

In the end, they didn't rule it a catch, so it didn't matter and R2 scored.

Does the ball being live or dead matter on the run scoring? Let's just simplify the play for a minute without the confusion of no one knowing whether the umpires had ruled a catch.

Runners on 2nd and 3rd and 1 out. Flyball to CF that is caught for out #2. R3 tags up and crosses home plate. R2 does not tag up and advances to R3.

a.) The CF throws the ball to the SS who steps on 2B to appeal the play.
b.) The ball goes back to the pitcher. Time is never called. The pitcher steps off the rubber and throws the ball to the SS who steps on 2B.
c.) The ball goes back to the pitcher. The defensive coach asks for time and goes out to the mound to explain to the pitcher they are going to appeal and he needs to throw the ball to 2nd base. After the coach leaves the field, the umpire puts the ball in play, and the pitcher steps off the rubber and throws to the SS who steps on 2B.

Any differences in those plays? Or would the appeal always would have to occur before R3 crosses home plate in order to prevent that run from scoring?

BTW, this was the state semifinal game the day before the crazy scenario in the other play in the championship game.

To stop R3's run you need to appeal before he touches home.