End of Wisconsin - Arizona State game

[Adam]

Originally Posted by parepat

HBK:

I am sure you realize by now that half of the guys on this site are merely apologists for officials. You are right. Guys in leadership positions all over the country agree with you. The officials erred by either (1) blowing an inadvertent whistle, or, (2) failing to set the ball or call a foul on ASU for delay, and (3) having the Umpire "hold" the snapper when no substitution occurred.

The stupidity of the Wisconsin QB in trying to center the ball does not relieve these officials from officiating the play correctly.

They made mistake(s) in a chaotic situation. I also don't think it warrants firing them.

No one here offered any apologetics for the officials. That's ridiculous, frankly. All that was offered was a sort of mitigation from the initial claim that these guys should be fired. IOW, "yeah they screwed up, but get a grip."

I'd be curious to find out what the prescribed remedy would have been here. The R should have been a bit more adamant about the situation. I don't see any possibility of flagging the defense here, and I doubt that's the prescription. In order to justify that, the U would have needed to ask for the ball, right? I could be wrong on this, though.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Not (1) - he clearly (in one angle at least, and that angle most closely mirrors R's angle) took a knee. But definitely (2) and (3), and I agree with you that player stupidity doesn't make it OK that the officials booted this one.

No one said it made it ok. Only that it explains it. And that it was avoidable for the players. IOW, don't do something weird that might confuse the refs, even at that level.
Oh, and we objected to the inital (and repeated) claims that they should never work again.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

No one here offered any apologetics for the officials. That's ridiculous, frankly. All that was offered was a sort of mitigation from the initial claim that these guys should be fired. IOW, "yeah they screwed up, but get a grip."

I'd be curious to find out what the prescribed remedy would have been here. The R should have been a bit more adamant about the situation. I don't see any possibility of flagging the defense here, and I doubt that's the prescription. In order to justify that, the U would have needed to ask for the ball, right? I could be wrong on this, though.



No one said it made it ok. Only that it explains it. And that it was avoidable for the players. IOW, don't do something weird that might confuse the refs, even at that level.
Oh, and we objected to the inital (and repeated) claims that they should never work again.

Here is the thing, they do not have an answer. You noticed they did not tell the Umpire to throw the offensive lineman out of the way or to figure out why the Wisconsin team with plenty of time (according to the OP) did not just kick a FG from the right hash. I have given more solutions to the situation then this guy.

Something tells me that no team in the country will instruct their QB to put the ball on the ground again.

Peace

[hbk314]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Here is the thing, they do not have an answer. You noticed they did not tell the Umpire to throw the offensive lineman out of the way or to figure out why the Wisconsin team with plenty of time (according to the OP) did not just kick a FG from the right hash. I have given more solutions to the situation then this guy.

Something tells me that no team in the country will instruct their QB to put the ball on the ground again.

Peace

If the officials were so confused by the play, they need to stop the clock to get things sorted out. Even after the clock hit zero, there was ample opportunity to talk it out and fix it.

The one thing that can't happen is what they let happen. The umpire was standing there socializing instead of spotting the ball for play. If he thought ASU had a right to the ball, the clock should have been stopped for change of possession. There's no excuse whatsoever for him letting the ASU player lay on the ball for 7 seconds with the clock still running. That's a delay of game.

The officials denied Wisconsin an OPPORTUNITY to win the game, effectively taking the game out of the hands of the players and deciding it themselves.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by hbk314

If the officials were so confused by the play, they need to stop the clock to get things sorted out. Even after the clock hit zero, there was ample opportunity to talk it out and fix it.

The one thing that can't happen is what they let happen. The umpire was standing there socializing instead of spotting the ball for play. If he thought ASU had a right to the ball, the clock should have been stopped for change of possession. There's no excuse whatsoever for him letting the ASU player lay on the ball for 7 seconds with the clock still running. That's a delay of game.

The officials denied Wisconsin an OPPORTUNITY to win the game, effectively taking the game out of the hands of the players and deciding it themselves.

Then if they do what you suggested and Wisconsin "clocks" the ball, and ASU fan on this site will claim the officials gave Wisconsin the game to set up field goal. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Wisconsin denied their chance to win the game. Kick the ball from the hash. If you cannot recruit a kicker to do that from HS (which has a wider angle from the hash) from that short distance, you do not deserve to win. Sorry, but it would have been easy to try a kick rather then trying to be cute. You are not going to change my mind on that point of view. They did not have to run another play to get the ball to the middle.

Peace

[hbk314]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then if they do what you suggested and Wisconsin "clocks" the ball, and ASU fan on this site will claim the officials gave Wisconsin the game to set up field goal. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Wisconsin denied their chance to win the game. Kick the ball from the hash. If you cannot recruit a kicker to do that from HS (which has a wider angle from the hash) from that short distance, you do not deserve to win. Sorry, but it would have been easy to try a kick rather then trying to be cute. You are not going to change my mind on that point of view. They did not have to run another play to get the ball to the middle.

Peace

Instead they rewarded ASU for laying on a dead ball for seven seconds preventing it from being spotted.

Your second paragraph has no relevance. There's no grey area here. The officials were completely in the wrong, and it denied Wisconsin an opportunity to attempt a game winning field goal.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by hbk314

and it denied Wisconsin an opportunity to attempt a game winning field goal.

Trying so hard to help you here.... but now I'm out. You don't get it and don't want to get it.

[hbk314]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Trying so hard to help you here.... but now I'm out. You don't get it and don't want to get it.

You've probably been the most reasonable person on this thread, but what I'm saying is true. Officials mistakes prevented Wisconsin from attempting a game-winning field goal. That's clear, in black and white.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by hbk314

Instead they rewarded ASU for laying on a dead ball for seven seconds preventing it from being spotted.

Your second paragraph has no relevance. There's no grey area here. The officials were completely in the wrong, and it denied Wisconsin an opportunity to attempt a game winning field goal.

What was the remedy? It is so black and white as you say, give me the rule and the section this situation says for the officials to do something. Saying they owe the team an explanation is not in the rules.

I would wait, but if you have not given an answer yet, you are not going to give one anytime soon.

Peace

[hbk314]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What was the remedy? It is so black and white as you say, give me the rule and the section this situation says for the officials to do something. Saying they owe the team an explanation is not in the rules.

I would wait, but if you have not given an answer yet, you are not going to give one anytime soon.

Peace

Delay of game.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by hbk314

Instead they rewarded ASU for laying on a dead ball for seven seconds preventing it from being spotted.

Your second paragraph has no relevance. There's no grey area here. The officials were completely in the wrong, and it denied Wisconsin an opportunity to attempt a game winning field goal.

It wasn't the ASU player lying on the ball that prevented quicker spotting of the ball. It was the lack of urgency by the U in finding the ball to get it spotted. This is a foul for DOG if the U is trying to get the ball and the player is not giving it to him. That's why I don't think you can fairly penalize ASU in this situation. The ASU player gave it up as soon as the U asked him. If the U felt the ASU player was intentionally hiding the ball so he couldn't find it then you may have an argument.

This was just a cluster started when the Wisconsin QB made his own mistake in judgment. Nobody is free of criticism and nobody is guilty of a catastrophic error. All parties use this as an opportunity to learn how to address it better next time and move on. It appears the officials are being addressed with sanctions through the league and it's none of our business that those sanctions are. The people who need to know are aware of what they are.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Sorry, but it would have been easy to try a kick rather then trying to be cute. You are not going to change my mind on that point of view. They did not have to run another play to get the ball to the middle.

They didn't have to play football at all, for that matter.

They had a couple downs to use. They had enough time, given anything close to normal officiating. Centering the ball is the appropriate thing to do. You're going to want to leave as close to 0 as you can get on the clock after your kick succeeds, and you want to maximize the angle for the kick to maximize the chance of its success.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by hbk314

If the officials were so confused by the play, they need to stop the clock to get things sorted out. Even after the clock hit zero, there was ample opportunity to talk it out and fix it.

You're not an official. We get that. But after being told this twelve ways to Sunday - what you're proscribing was NOT an option. If they had done as you suggested, they'd have done something equally as bad as what they actually did - only the victim of that screw up would have changed.

The umpire was standing there socializing instead of spotting the ball for play. If he thought ASU had a right to the ball, the clock should have been stopped for change of possession. There's no excuse whatsoever for him letting the ASU player lay on the ball for 7 seconds with the clock still running. That's a delay of game.

Here's where I completely agree with you.

The officials denied Wisconsin an OPPORTUNITY to win the game, effectively taking the game out of the hands of the players and deciding it themselves.

And again ... this is no better than what you said before. Don't go there - you lose all credibility and your point goes out the window as this incorrect concept draws all the attention. PS - they HAD an opportunity to win the game. They chose to run a play instead and bad stuff happened.

[MD Longhorn]

Put it this way... Wisconsin chose to take a risk by running a play - not a big risk, but a risk. Something that should have worked 99% of the time, and increased their chances of making the field goal marginally. Unfortunately, they then rolled double-zeros.

[hbk314]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Put it this way... Wisconsin chose to take a risk by running a play - not a big risk, but a risk. Something that should have worked 99% of the time, and increased their chances of making the field goal marginally. Unfortunately, they then rolled double-zeros.

I understand what you're saying, and if it had been a Wisconsin error that cost them, I'd agree with you.

It cannot be disputed that the officials mishandling of the situation cost Wisconsin a chance to win the game. Wisconsin may have missed the field goal in the end, but they didn't get the chance to attempt it.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'd be curious to find out what the prescribed remedy would have been here. The R should have been a bit more adamant about the situation. I don't see any possibility of flagging the defense here, and I doubt that's the prescription. In order to justify that, the U would have needed to ask for the ball, right? I could be wrong on this, though.

Actually, I don't think flagging the defense for laying on the ball once the umpire told him to get off would have been inappropriate. Of course, this would have required some awareness of the clock on the umpire's part - something that was clearly not there since he felt it was a great opportunity to chat up the other defensive player rather than getting the ball.

No one said it made it ok. Only that it explains it. And that it was avoidable for the players. IOW, don't do something weird that might confuse the refs, even at that level.

It's not always possible to read what Jeff really does mean ... but several of his comments came across (to me at least) as saying the QB's idiocy DID make it OK that the officials screwed it up.

Oh, and we objected to the inital (and repeated) claims that they should never work again.

I do too. Right with you on that one.