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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 08, 2013, 09:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn View Post
I guess this is not enforced in State Finals. Mentor QB hit hard in helmet, left very groggy, returned and finished the game.

Mentor 3-2 at Moeller14 5-C. Krizancic rush for 12 yards to the MOELLER2, 1ST DOWN MENTOR (6-Sam Hubhard).
Mentor 1-G at Moeller02 5-C. Krizancic rush for 1 yard to the MOELLER1 (93-Robby Pohlman).
Mentor 2-G at Moeller01 Timeout Mentor, clock 00:52.
Mentor 2-G at Moeller01 40-Eddie Daugherty at QB for Mentor.
Mentor 2-G at Moeller01 44-Alex Mathews rush for loss of 2 yards to the MOELLER3 (11-Chalmer Frueauf;44-Kole Shade).
Mentor 3-G at Moeller03 5-C. Krizancic at QB for Mentor.
Mentor 3-G at Moeller03 5-C. Krizancic pass complete to 40-Eddie Daugherty for 3 yards to the MOELLER0, TOUCHDOWN, clock 00:44.
39-Mike Muzic kick attempt good.
Yawn.....

You weren't on the field, so all you are doing is guessing..... It just might be the correct guess, but it's still a guess.
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 08, 2013, 09:10pm
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Question

And you know he was very groggy by......a) being there talking to him?
b) Heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend?
c) Super duper Aquaman-like telepathic communication?
d) Watched it on STO and heard an announcer in the booth tell you on your telly.
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 09, 2013, 10:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parepat View Post
Of all the following people: parent, doctor, trainer or coach, the official is the least appropriate to decide whether a player can play due to head injury.
Least appropriate in what respect? All the other people you mention are partial and have a rooting interest in keeping a potentially injured player in the game. The only impartial people on the field are the officials, and the law requires them to err on the side of safety.

That said, I don't like its implementation either. I don't want to defend a bad law, but the problem with it is not its rationale.

As for lawsuits, meh. Ohio's law doesn't increase our risk exposure significantly. When a player gets injured and the parents decide to sue, the lawyers will name every adult within reach: coaches, school administrators, the school board, the state athletic association, the officials on the field, and anyone else they can think of. You throw that stuff at everyone and see where it might stick.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 09, 2013, 11:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
b) Heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend?.
My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw him pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 09, 2013, 03:57pm
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This same concern comes up regularly warning about all sorts of calamities, but the bottom line is that not a whole lot, if anything, has changed, other than we're asked, and therefore expected, to be more vigilant.

NFHS 3-5-10 covers our responsibilities. The key phrase is in 3-5-10-a; "An apparently injured player is discovered by a game official.......sets the tone. Recognizing we are NOT medical professionals, the bar for generating concern, is set rather low. "Apparently injured" doesn't require a lot of diagnostic expertise and seems more a "common sense" guide.

For whatever reason, if an official doesn't like the way a player acts, behaves looks or otherwise raises concern for a players physical condition, he is authorized and encouraged to remove the player from the contest for evaluation by a medical professional, who will render a diagnosis and is responsible to decide if that player is medically fit to continue participating.

If in what should be a [U]"rare" exception [/U]the player authorized to return, continues to raise an officials concern, he is authorized to require reevaluation, to the point where concern is eliminated. Could that lead to overly anxious abuse? Possibly, but extremely doubtful.

In what should be the rarest of circumstances, where for some reason an official seriously rejects the medical decision of the designated medical personnel, can the official insist on additional clarification? Being right isn't always easy, but if there is serious enough concern, being right is correct

3-5-10-b focuses on symptoms common to "Concussions" and calls for additional scrutiny by officials and enhanced reactions to have a suspected player observed quickly, and raises the requirements for the player returning. Once again, if a player is certified to return, and continues to exhibit symptoms alarming an official, he is authorized to refer the player for additional evaluation.

The bottom line, sometimes difficult to remember is that we are charged with acting responsibly about the potential health and well being of children. Even after staying in a Holiday Inn Express, we are not medical professionals and in all but the absolute rarest of circumstances, should the medical professionals responsible for the game we are officiating, somehow, be unable to relieve our medical concerns and persuade us that their expertise is superior to our concerns, we should do what's right.

At some point early in this dispute, I would suggest seeking guidance from crew members to help evaluate your concerns.
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 10, 2013, 07:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
This same concern comes up regularly warning about all sorts of calamities, but the bottom line is that not a whole lot, if anything, has changed, other than we're asked, and therefore expected, to be more vigilant.

NFHS 3-5-10 covers our responsibilities. The key phrase is in 3-5-10-a; "An apparently injured player is discovered by a game official.......sets the tone. Recognizing we are NOT medical professionals, the bar for generating concern, is set rather low. "Apparently injured" doesn't require a lot of diagnostic expertise and seems more a "common sense" guide.

For whatever reason, if an official doesn't like the way a player acts, behaves looks or otherwise raises concern for a players physical condition, he is authorized and encouraged to remove the player from the contest for evaluation by a medical professional, who will render a diagnosis and is responsible to decide if that player is medically fit to continue participating.

If in what should be a [U]"rare" exception [/U]the player authorized to return, continues to raise an officials concern, he is authorized to require reevaluation, to the point where concern is eliminated. Could that lead to overly anxious abuse? Possibly, but extremely doubtful.

In what should be the rarest of circumstances, where for some reason an official seriously rejects the medical decision of the designated medical personnel, can the official insist on additional clarification? Being right isn't always easy, but if there is serious enough concern, being right is correct

3-5-10-b focuses on symptoms common to "Concussions" and calls for additional scrutiny by officials and enhanced reactions to have a suspected player observed quickly, and raises the requirements for the player returning. Once again, if a player is certified to return, and continues to exhibit symptoms alarming an official, he is authorized to refer the player for additional evaluation.

The bottom line, sometimes difficult to remember is that we are charged with acting responsibly about the potential health and well being of children. Even after staying in a Holiday Inn Express, we are not medical professionals and in all but the absolute rarest of circumstances, should the medical professionals responsible for the game we are officiating, somehow, be unable to relieve our medical concerns and persuade us that their expertise is superior to our concerns, we should do what's right.

At some point early in this dispute, I would suggest seeking guidance from crew members to help evaluate your concerns.
However, the rules are overridden by the law in Ohio. An apparently concussed player may not participate further that day regardless of medical evaluation and may only return after that day after being cleared by a doctor. I didn't see the game in question, but if you can tell from the video or the stands that a player was apparently concussed, it seems likely that the law was broken. If that is the case, the coaches and the officials could find themselves in some legal trouble.
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 10, 2013, 09:56am
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Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
However, the rules are overridden by the law in Ohio. An apparently concussed player may not participate further that day regardless of medical evaluation and may only return after that day after being cleared by a doctor. I didn't see the game in question, but if you can tell from the video or the stands that a player was apparently concussed, it seems likely that the law was broken. If that is the case, the coaches and the officials could find themselves in some legal trouble.
How can anyone watching a video (or watching from the stands) know what an official personally observed? How can anyone watching a video (or watching from the stands) know what a coach, doctor, or trainer personally observed or what communication took place between the parties involved?

The law in Ohio pertains to once a player is sent out. What happens before he is sent out is no different than anywhere else. If we observe the behavior, signs or symptoms, we send them out. If someones else observes the same, they sit them out.

Nobody can tell without a doubt what truly took place on that field/sideline.
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 10, 2013, 10:04am
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Originally Posted by asdf View Post
How can anyone watching a video (or watching from the stands) know what an official personally observed? How can anyone watching a video (or watching from the stands) know what a coach, doctor, or trainer personally observed or what communication took place between the parties involved?

The law in Ohio pertains to once a player is sent out. What happens before he is sent out is no different than anywhere else. If we observe the behavior, signs or symptoms, we send them out. If someones else observes the same, they sit them out.

Nobody can tell without a doubt what truly took place on that field/sideline.
No, the Ohio law starts with the duty to send him out. It also requires a certain level of training in regards to recognizing the apparent symptoms of a concussion.

If apparent symptoms of a concussion are obvious enough that they are observable from video, it at least suggests either a certain amount of willful blindness to those symptoms or an inadequate amount of situational awareness by those on the field and the sidelines. Either of these puts those involved in danger of effective legal action.

You don't have to be able to tell without a doubt what happened. The relevant standard is going to be the preponderance of the evidence.
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 10, 2013, 12:17pm
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Anyone who saw him attended to by the trainers and saw him come out of the game, could see he was being checked for concussion type symptoms. Did he have a concussion, I have no idea, was there a question of his injury? yes. Doesn't the rule say if anyone removes him from the game for possible concussion, he is done for the day?

I don't agree with the rule or like it but it is State Law.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 10, 2013, 12:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn View Post
Anyone who saw him attended to by the trainers and saw him come out of the game, could see he was being checked for concussion type symptoms. Did he have a concussion, I have no idea, was there a question of his injury? yes. Doesn't the rule say if anyone removes him from the game for possible concussion, he is done for the day?

I don't agree with the rule or like it but it is State Law.
I would agree that any symptom that would cause a trainer to do a concussion assessment would by law end participation for the day.

I also don't like the law.
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 10, 2013, 01:27pm
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High school football: Mentor falls to Cincinnati Moeller in state championship game

Krizancic was knocked out of the game briefly in the late going, but returned for the last touchdown pass to Daugherty. He was noticeably wobbly after the game as he walked with quarterbacks coach Nes Janiak and his father, boys basketball coach Bob Krizancic, from the field.
“He’s OK. He got a little dinged up,” Trivisonno said of Krizancic. “He played his tail off. He had a great game. (Moeller) didn’t stop him, either.”
Moeller looked to be in decent shape when Ragland plowed in from the 1 late in the third quarter for a 48-22 lead.


Guys, I am pretty sure I saw them use Smelling Salts! My son even commented on it as we watched the game.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 10, 2013, 01:51pm
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Someone should tell the writer of the article to use a different term, knocked out sounds like Boxing!
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 10, 2013, 02:07pm
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Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
No, the Ohio law starts with the duty to send him out. It also requires a certain level of training in regards to recognizing the apparent symptoms of a concussion.
The duty to send him out is only kicks in when the official observes the symptoms. (or coach, trainer, doctor, administrator...etc)

What you saw may be different than what an official saw.

In the end, you may be 100% correct that the player was concussed. However you cannot prove what anyone saw with their own eyes.
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 10, 2013, 02:16pm
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http://ohsaa.org/medicine/Concussion...eb2013_PPE.pdf

Isn't that the reasoning behind all the concussion recognition training??

Aren't all these adults supposed to be trained to see such things??

Isn't that the gist of this legislation??



Thank you for all that you do and have been doing to provide education to your coaching staff, parents and students
regarding the prevention, recognition and management of concussions and head injuries. For the last two years, the
OHSAA has been at the forefront of the rules writing and education process to respond to this critical health issue
that can have a devastating impact on our student-athletes. We will continue that mission to protect our students and
all those who work in the interscholastic athletics arena.


Interpretations
Concussions
The last two (2) years the NFHS has been clear in its emphasis on concussion management. The NFHS Rules Power Points have all highlighted this, and the SUGGESTED GUIDELINES FOR MANAGEMENT OF CONCUSSION is included as an appendix in all rule books. There is a new North Carolina state law that mandates how athletes are to be treated by appropriate athletic training and licensed medical personnel. I am giving you this information as a re-emphasis on the seriousness regarding concussions and our responsibilities as officials. Coaches are also being reminded regarding the guidelines of return-to-play procedures they must follow before allowing the athlete to return to the contest.

As an official, if you observe or sense an athlete may be compromised, you are to guide/indicate (to) the athlete and the head coach to remove the athlete from the contest for them to “take a look” at the athlete. At that time, your responsibility for the athlete is complete. You are not a trained medical person who is responsible for diagnosing concussions. But, we do want you to be aware of the symptoms which may indicate an athlete has sustained a concussion (defined as a traumatic brain injury that interferes with normal brain function). The symptoms as listed by the NFHS Rules are as follows:

Headache
Fogginess
Difficultly concentrating
Easily confused
Slowed thought process
Difficulty with memory
Nausea
Lack of energy, tiredness
Dizziness, poor balance
Blurred vision
Sensitive to light and sounds
Mood changes—irritable, anxious, or tearful
Appears dazed or stunned
Confused about assignment
Forgets plays
Unsure of game, score or opponent
Moves clumsily
Answers questions slowly
Loses consciousness
Shows behavior or personality changes
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Last edited by bigjohn; Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 02:41pm.
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 10, 2013, 03:03pm
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I have no idea what the officials saw or what the actual symptoms or signs were. If a player is down and is surrounded by trainers, coaches, etc., I'm not going over there and poking my nose in to see if he might possibly be exhibiting signs or symptoms of a concussion. If I see them, I'll fulfill my duties under the law. But if the trainers are attending to the kid, then I'm not looking and I'm not seeing. The law's on them too.

Frankly, I think the concern over the OH law is much ado about nothing.
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