Excessive celebration-Pinstripe Bowl

[ottobabble]

Originally Posted by junruh07

Obviously, you call the foul. Because of the two flags, I figured that this crew had run into this situation earlier in the season or in training, and someone told them to penalize this action. Where it becomes frustrating is when very similar, or even bigger, actions in other games are not penalized. It isn't just frustrating for the fans of that team, but also for others who are quick to criticize, but slow to look up the actual rule. For the record, I am a K-State student and fan, but I really am a basketball official, so I am trying really hard to participate in the discussion but not be a fanboy.

I totally understand this, but how can a salute be seen as excessive and not the "O" crap the Syracuse player did especially after the "throw back" TD? If you look at this play, why was it OK for the Syracuse player to grab the KSU player 8 yards deep in the EZ just before the KSU player saluted?

KSU lost this game for a lot of reasons (horrible defense, questionable coaching decisions, etc...) other than a horse crud call (in my humble opinion). Two flags on that doesn't change my opinion of it. Why did they chose this one to flag and not flag all the other obvious "calling attention to themselves" acts.

I will offer one possbile explaination, there could have been warnings communicated to the KSU sideline prior to this, and if so, I put it all on the player and the coaching staff.

Obviously there is inconsistency in how the rule is interpreted across the country and that needs to be fixed pronto.

[JasonTX]

It will never be consistent because each official has to judge whether or not the action is legal or not. They want officials to allow "spontaneous" celebrations, but not something that draws attention to ones self. You can certainly see now how much attention this has drawn. What is so hard for these players to just hand the ball to the official and then go to the huddle or his sideline. Go to the sideline and celebrate all you want. It really is that simple. Each official has a different level to what he "feels" is ok and what he don't. We've been told if we "feel" ok with the action, then let it go. What I feel is ok, may not feel ok with another official. Players and coaches need to understand that it will never be called the same so just don't put the official in a position to judge any action that could be deemed illegal.

[Reffing Rev.]

Was he celebrating or showboating?

It is impossible to list every action a player or team might commit and define which ones are acceptable and which ones are excessive. Therefore it remains in the realm of judgment.

Forget listing all of the unacceptable behaviors and lets agree on a short list of acceptable behaviors. I'll start with 1.

I remember in high school being coached with this line: After you score give the ball to the official and go to the huddle: they can't flag you for that.

[ottobabble]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

. What is so hard for these players to just hand the ball to the official and then go to the huddle or his sideline. Go to the sideline and celebrate all you want. It really is that simple. Each official has a different level to what he "feels" is ok and what he don't. We've been told if we "feel" ok with the action, then let it go. What I feel is ok, may not feel ok with another official. Players and coaches need to understand that it will never be called the same so just don't put the official in a position to judge any action that could be deemed illegal.

Well said!

[TXMike]

COLLEGE FOOTBALL OFFICIATING, LLC

CFO GUIDELINES ON UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT FOULS

Player behavior in committing unsportsmanlike conduct fouls continues to be a major point of emphasis for the NCAA Football Rules Committee and the CFO Board of Managers. Recognizing these fouls and enforcing the penalties place our officials in a difficult situation. It is the nature of the business to be criticized, and it seems especially true when we try to apply the relevant rules (Rule 9-2-1). These are judgment calls, as are all the decisions officials make during the action of the game.

As officials apply their judgment, perhaps these guidelines will be helpful:

•Remember that the game is one of high emotion, played by gifted teenagers who are affirmed by playing a game at which they are exceptionally talented.
•Do not be overly technical in applying this rule.
•Do allow for brief spontaneous emotional reactions at the end of a play.
•Beyond the brief, spontaneous bursts of energy, officials should flag those acts that are clearly prolonged, self-congratulatory, and that make a mockery of the game.
A list of specifically prohibited acts is in (a) thru (h) on FR-122,123; this list is intended to be illustrative and not exhaustive. We can all agree that when these acts are clearly intended to taunt or demean, they should not be allowed—not only because they are written in the book, but because they offend our sense of how the game should be played. We now have enough experience with this rule to know what “feels” right and wrong. Note that most if not all of these actions fall outside the category of brief, spontaneous outbursts. Rather, they present themselves as taunting, self-glorification, demeaning to opponents, or showing disrespect to the opponents and the game.

When such a situation arises, officials should wait a count, take a deep breath, and assess what they feel about what they have seen.

If it feels OK, let it go.

If it feels wrong, flag it.

It will never be possible to be totally specific in writing what should and should not be allowed. But we trust our officials to be men of good judgment who know in their hearts what should and should not be allowed in the heat of an emotional game.



Rogers Redding

NCAA Secretary-Rules Editor



David Parry

CFO National Coordinator

[Eastshire]

The problem is more the draconian rule then the officials, but I personally thought the call completely unnecessary and it ruined what would have otherwise been an exciting finish to a close game.

It was a quick, spontaneous action by an obviously excited player. It was not, IMHO, an intentional attempt to draw attention to himself. That two officials saw fit to throw flags on it is staggering to me.

Hopefully, this incident will get the rules committee to lighten up on celebrations.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Tennessee players, both the receivers and the QB did it after all three TS passes, as well as one receiver who pulled the belt buckle gag. No flags for any of those, Big Ten crew as well. That's real hard for fans to understand, much less officials.

What is the "belt buckle gag"?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Blue37

What is the "belt buckle gag"?

Simulated unbuckling his belt and undoing his pants. How stupid is that?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

We've been told if we "feel" ok with the action, then let it go. What I feel is ok, may not feel ok with another official. Players and coaches need to understand that it will never be called the same so just don't put the official in a position to judge any action that could be deemed illegal.

I'm sorry but that's just unacceptable. If this rule is going to work then the powers that be need to develop very specific guidelines as to what is allowed, what isn't, and stick to it. As officials we are always working to be consistent. To accept inconsistency in this situation, when 95% of the time this call involves scoring opportunities is total BS.

I'm usually not critical of officials in such situation but there's no way to defend that call. It's obvious that the two officials didn't take any of the bullet points listed in the memo that TXMike posted into account. If they did, no flag would have been thrown.

Yes, coaches need to coach their players not to put themselves in a position where it can be called. But if I salute in one game and it's not called, it shouldn't be called if I salute in the next game.

The "how does it feel" mentality is BS and makes the officials the bad guys.

[bisonlj]

Keep in mind the salutes in the other games may not have been seen by an official. Just because a camera caught it doesn't mean an official caught it. I saw a throat slash by the UT QB on film that would have been an easy foul if the official had seen it. It happened long enough after the play the R had probably stopped watching the QB. That also leads to the inconsistent application of this rule.

[amusedofficial]

Do you think maybe after scoring that late in a bowl game he was, in fact, saluting the fans who were still with his team, and who were cheering to the end when their team needed a big play?

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I'm sorry but that's just unacceptable. If this rule is going to work then the powers that be need to develop very specific guidelines as to what is allowed, what isn't, and stick to it.

Yes, coaches need to coach their players not to put themselves in a position where it can be called. But if I salute in one game and it's not called, it shouldn't be called if I salute in the next game. :

Your expectations are just not realistic. Trying to develop a never ending list of specifically what will, and what will not, be tolerated is insane because of the endless creativity involved, and it's doubtful anyone would be able to remember the entire list. This "celebration nonsense", and the higher level of theatrics produced by it is a fairly new phenomenom that it's simply easier and more manageable to try and eliminate, rather than monitor and control.

As for "consistency", the goal is consistency with YOUR reaction within YOUR game. Looking for consistency, to the gnat's eyelash level, on a wider scale is a total illusion, and won't be achievable until we attain widespread and consistent perfection (which is a long way off).

If a player has done something stupid in one game and gotten away with it, that does not give him license to continue being stupid. Simply put, what the player, his coach, his parents and his fans consider acceptable, doesn't matter a lick. What counts is what the individual official viewing the behavior considers acceptable, and unless you are absolutely sure what each field official is thinking, the safest, surest bet is to give the ball to the nearest official after a score, and retreat to the team box before celebrating.

That was a practice, that worked pretty well for the first 100+ years of football.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Keep in mind the salutes in the other games may not have been seen by an official. Just because a camera caught it doesn't mean an official caught it. I saw a throat slash by the UT QB on film that would have been an easy foul if the official had seen it. It happened long enough after the play the R had probably stopped watching the QB. That also leads to the inconsistent application of this rule.

Understood. But we saw three salutes, a double throat slash, and a belt buckle pull, yet not one was flagged. Now, I can buy 1 or 2 not being seen but all 5?

Now, had the K-State salute not been flagged, I wouldn't have though anything about any of those except the throat slash. I would have passed on all but the slash.

But if other Big Ten crews are flagging those, then this Big Ten crew needs to work on their dead ball officiating.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

While I don't know what type of instruction Big Ten crews have had regarding this type of display, I do know that when it happens has nothing to do with whether it should be flagged or not. If that's a foul in the 1st qtr. it's a foul in the 4th quarter.

What is telling is that the exact same thing has happened twice in the UNC-UT game but no call has been made.

This is the part that makes the call difficult to swallow - as was discussed at some length by Mark May and Lou Holtz....and the refs were apparently from the same conference!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Your expectations are just not realistic. Trying to develop a never ending list of specifically what will, and what will not, be tolerated is insane because of the endless creativity involved, and it's doubtful anyone would be able to remember the entire list. This "celebration nonsense", and the higher level of theatrics produced by it is a fairly new phenomenom that it's simply easier and more manageable to try and eliminate, rather than monitor and control.

As for "consistency", the goal is consistency with YOUR reaction within YOUR game. Looking for consistency, to the gnat's eyelash level, on a wider scale is a total illusion, and won't be achievable until we attain widespread and consistent perfection (which is a long way off).

If a player has done something stupid in one game and gotten away with it, that does not give him license to continue being stupid. Simply put, what the player, his coach, his parents and his fans consider acceptable, doesn't matter a lick. What counts is what the individual official viewing the behavior considers acceptable, and unless you are absolutely sure what each field official is thinking, the safest, surest bet is to give the ball to the nearest official after a score, and retreat to the team box before celebrating.

That was a practice, that worked pretty well for the first 100+ years of football.

Whether my expectations are realistic or not, there's no way you can justify a salute being flagged as USC in one game and in the very next game, on the same network, a crew from the same conference ignores the exact same act three times.

There's nothing new about about this "celebration nonsense" as you describe it. It's been in the game for years. Ever heard of Billy "White Shoes" Johnson? He was knee wobbling when I was a kid in the 70's. Players were spiking the ball and dunking it over the cross bar in the 80's. The "Icky Shuffle" is 20 years old. This isn't new and it's not going away.

This situation is broken and needs to be fixed. Players, coaches, fans, and even fellow officials should be subject to the whims of a particular official is feeling on a given day. If the guidelines presented don't work, and they obviously don't, then new guidelines need to be created. The NCAA has the technological ability to issue clarifications and guidelines to officials and coaches on a daily basis. As it is, the NCAA is making the officials the whipping boy as opposed to taken responsibility for the enforcement. The way the rules are currently written, the guidelines given, and the NCAA's "it's up to the official" mentality, it all places the officials in the line of fire from fans, coaches, players and the media.

It simply is not fair to officials.