Fake FG Question

[ITOWN]

I retired from football officiating in 2004 and saw a play last weekend that piqued my curiosity. My son's team was playing in NY(Section V AA) in a championship game and with 4 seconds left attempted a fake FG. The holder caught the snap with his knee on the ground and flipped the ball over his shoulder to the kicker who rolled right. The holder then ran to the left and kicker threw back across the field to him for a game winning TD. Is this play legal? Someone asked if for the holder to be eligible to receive the pass his knee needed to be off the ground when he received the snap. It's been six years since I officiated and I honestly don't remember. Here is a link to the play if you want to watch the video. Forward the highlights to the 2:45 mark to skip to the play. Any officials who help out, I appreciate it.

http://rochesterhomepage.net/fulltex...215296&watch=1

[Texas Aggie]

I think both codes agree: the exception for the holder's knee is good as long as he's holding or simulating the hold and he may run or pass or otherwise advance the ball. He can get up or stay down and pass, but once he does that, we go off exception for everyone, including him. His knee having once been down or his status as a holder means nothing in terms of eligibility to catch a forward pass. Since he's a back, only a number would make him ineligible.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

I think both codes agree: the exception for the holder's knee is good as long as he's holding or simulating the hold and he may run or pass or otherwise advance the ball. He can get up or stay down and pass, but once he does that, we go off exception for everyone, including him. His knee having once been down or his status as a holder means nothing in terms of eligibility to catch a forward pass. Since he's a back, only a number would make him ineligible.

NFHS rules require the holder to bring the knee off the ground before handing, passing, or kicking the football. Once the ball is flipped by the holder with the knee on the ground, the play should be blown dead as the exception is not met and therefore the (now) runner is down. 4-2-2a EXCEPTIONS.

I had this happen in a varsity game last season and the coach mentioned the play in the pregame meeting and I gave him the proper ruling and the player flipped it anyway. When I looked over at the coach, he had his hands over his eyes and he told the wing he *told* the kid to raise his knee before passing (backward) the football.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

NFHS rules require the holder to bring the knee off the ground before handing, passing, or kicking the football. Once the ball is flipped by the holder with the knee on the ground, the play should be blown dead as the exception is not met and therefore the (now) runner is down. 4-2-2a EXCEPTIONS.

I had this happen in a varsity game last season and the coach mentioned the play in the pregame meeting and I gave him the proper ruling and the player flipped it anyway. When I looked over at the coach, he had his hands over his eyes and he told the wing he *told* the kid to raise his knee before passing (backward) the football.

Had that happen in a JV game this year...we did not know about it prior to the snap. When I killed it (knee on ground...flipped backwards over the shoulder to kicker), the coaching staff, and of course, some members of the crowd who mysteriously always know the rules better than the officials, started barking about the play being blown dead. Head coach's argument was that he saw it on TV the week before.....I kid you not. This is also the same school that had their QB throw the ball into the team box, twice, to avoid a sack....you know, because the kid was out of the tackle box. Gotta love it.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by Canned Heat

Had that happen in a JV game this year...we did not know about it prior to the snap. When I killed it (knee on ground...flipped backwards over the shoulder to kicker), the coaching staff, and of course, some members of the crowd who mysteriously always know the rules better than the officials, started barking about the play being blown dead. Head coach's argument was that he saw it on TV the week before.....I kid you not. This is also the same school that had their QB throw the ball into the team box, twice, to avoid a sack....you know, because the kid was out of the tackle box. Gotta love it.

He's gotta be the same coach who wants an automatic first down on a personal foul.

[Matt-MI]

Under NF rules the holder can have his knee on the ground when he receives the snap but must rise off the ground the hand off or pass the ball. It appeared that his knee was on the ground therefore the ball is dead.
4-2-2a exception 1
4.2.2 SITUATION A

[ump33]

Case Book 4.2.2 SITUATION A: K1 has one knee on the ground to hold for an apparent field-goal attempt. K2 is in position to kick. K1 catches the snap and: (a) places the ball which is kicked by K2; or (b) rises and either runs or passes; or (c) without rising, flips the ball to K2 who attempts to run.

RULING: Legal in (a) and (b). In (c), the ball becomes dead immediately when K1 tosses it to K2 while K1 has his knee on the ground. (4-2-2a Exception)

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ITOWN

I retired from football officiating in 2004 and saw a play last weekend that piqued my curiosity. My son's team was playing in NY(Section V AA) in a championship game and with 4 seconds left attempted a fake FG. The holder caught the snap with his knee on the ground and flipped the ball over his shoulder to the kicker who rolled right. The holder then ran to the left and kicker threw back across the field to him for a game winning TD. Is this play legal? Someone asked if for the holder to be eligible to receive the pass his knee needed to be off the ground when he received the snap.

CANADIAN RULING:

The holder with his knee on the ground and possession of the ball is an exception to the ball being dead if done for the purposes of holding for a FGA. For the flip over the shoulder to be legal, the knee must come off of the ground.

Additionally, since the holder is not an ineligible receiver, he most certainly receive a forward pass.

The position of the holder's knee when he receives the snap has no bearing on his eligibility.

[Tim C]

If you hear the common refrain: "is that a new rule?"

Explain, with a smile on your face, that you know a "really old guy" that was a holder in high school 43 YEARS AGO and the rule was identical then to what it is now.

T

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by Tim C

If you hear the common refrain: "is that a new rule?"

Explain, with a smile on your face, that you know a "really old guy" that was a holder in high school 43 YEARS AGO and the rule was identical then to what it is now.

T

Funny, because I'm 42...which isn't OLD, but a good portion of these rules haven't changed since I was playing.

I do get the: "when did they put that rule in?" question quite often. Like when the HC tells you his team is legally equipped and you see 3 kids with all white or all clear mouthguards....which happens at least once a month up here.

[ITOWN]

Thanks for all the responses. I asked the question wrong but got the right answer. Because his knee was down it should have been blown dead when he threw it. That leads me to the question. From a timing standpoint would the next play have the clock start on the ready or the snap? There were only 4 seconds left but it was 1st down so I'm wondering if they would have been able to get a FG off on the next play.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ITOWN

Thanks for all the responses. I asked the question wrong but got the right answer. Because his knee was down it should have been blown dead when he threw it. That leads me to the question. From a timing standpoint would the next play have the clock start on the ready or the snap? There were only 4 seconds left but it was 1st down so I'm wondering if they would have been able to get a FG off on the next play.

This would be a running play, so the clock would not stop unless it was 4th down and the series ended. For your play, the clock would surely expire.

[ITOWN]

Originally Posted by mbyron

This would be a running play, so the clock would not stop unless it was 4th down and the series ended. For your play, the clock would surely expire.

I thought it would be ruled an incomplete pass. Why would it be considered a running play but blown dead then start on the ready?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ITOWN

I thought it would be ruled an incomplete pass. Why would it be considered a running play but blown dead then start on the ready?

The runner is down because his knee is on the ground and he has lost his exception. The play is blown dead, but the clock is not stopped.

[Reffing Rev.]

Last year week 8 pregame coach asked if this play was legal, and I explained that the holder had to rise to pitch or pass and he said that makes it 4 and 4. 4 WH had told them that season it was legal. (What really bothers me is that 2 of th em I know are working tonight and my season ended after 1st round.)