Fake tag in FED?

[David Emerling]

This discussion came up in another forum in reaction to a play that occurred in the World Series.

Play: R1 less than 2 outs. Grounder hit to F4's left. The ball is just out of F4's reach and it goes into rightfield as hit. F6, however, plays the role of the pivot man at 2nd base and pretends that the ball had been fielded by F4, he pretends to catch the toss and continues on with these theatrics and actually fakes a throw to 1st, as if completing a double play. All this occurs as R1 is approaching 2nd base. Clearly, the purpose of the deception was to get R1 to slide.

Now, I know there is no fake tag provision in MLB baseball.

But if you saw this decoy in a FED game, would you rule obstruction? Would you put this in this in the same category as a fake tag? And if so, what if R1 doesn't fall for the deception and is thrown out attempting to advance to 3rd?

By the way, in the World Series, F6 never *physically* got in R1's way and R1 did not fall for the deception and continued on to 3rd base on the hit.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[bluezebra]

I would disregard the "fake relay". It's not the same as a "fake tag". R1, and other runners, should know when a ball goes into the outfield. The ball went past F4, which means it was right in front of R1. If he's that stupid not to see a ball go into the outfield, he has a major problem.

Bob

[Edited by bluezebra on Nov 7th, 2002 at 12:57 PM]

[insatty]

I guess I'm just more charitable toward rule-abiding runners and less charitable toward not-in-the-spirit-of-the-rule deceptions that gain an unwarranted advantage. To me, if R1 actually falls for the prank and slides, then I have a Type-B obstruction and would protect the R1 to 3B or award R1 3B after playing action stops.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by David Emerling

This discussion came up in another forum in reaction to a play that occurred in the World Series.

Play: R1 less than 2 outs. Grounder hit to F4's left. The ball is just out of F4's reach and it goes into rightfield as hit. F6, however, plays the role of the pivot man at 2nd base and pretends that the ball had been fielded by F4, he pretends to catch the toss and continues on with these theatrics and actually fakes a throw to 1st, as if completing a double play. All this occurs as R1 is approaching 2nd base. Clearly, the purpose of the deception was to get R1 to slide.

Now, I know there is no fake tag provision in MLB baseball.

But if you saw this decoy in a FED game, would you rule obstruction? Would you put this in this in the same category as a fake tag? And if so, what if R1 doesn't fall for the deception and is thrown out attempting to advance to 3rd?

By the way, in the World Series, F6 never *physically* got in R1's way and R1 did not fall for the deception and continued on to 3rd base on the hit.

David, decoys are ok even in FED.

Here's a FED case play to illustrate

FED case play 6.2.4E

With R2, on second, F1 wheels and fakes a throw to second on a pickoff attempt. As R2 dives back to the base, F4/F6 run into short center field as if chasing an errant throw. R2 seeing this, takes off for third base where he is thrown out by F1.

RULING: This is LEGAL and is NOT considered unsportsmanlike conduct. R2's base coaches have the responsibility to keep R2 informed.

I know the aformentioned is not EXACTLY your play but it prooves that decoys in FED are acceptable. It's up to the base coaches to keep their runners informed.

Pete Booth

[Whowefoolin]

There are decoys all around us. Fake bunts that brings F5 charging in. Jump turn to F4 in order to keep the runner close. Pitcher fakes to third then throw over to first. Catcher sets up outside and the pitcher throws inside.

No difference. Players need to get dirty and learn the lesson of listening and watching.

[greymule]

I never agreed with the fake tag rule, either in Fed or in ASA. When I played, it was considered unsportsmanlike if, with the runner on first going, F6 faked a tag after a foul ball. F6 gained no advantage; he just made the runner slide for no reason. But if the pitch got away from F2, then faking a tag was smart baseball. If the coaches couldn't communicate with the runner, then any delay you could cause the runner was OK. Of course, people knew how to slide in those days, so the worst that could happen was that you got your uniform dirty.

In the World Series, the runner didn't "fall for the deception." Pros usually don't.

Well, since so many more slides today cause injury, I guess Fed and ASA are justified in prohibiting the fake tag.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by insatty
I guess I'm just more charitable toward rule-abiding runners and less charitable toward not-in-the-spirit-of-the-rule deceptions that gain an unwarranted advantage. To me, if R1 actually falls for the prank and slides, then I have a Type-B obstruction and would protect the R1 to 3B or award R1 3B after playing action stops.

There is no "Type-B obstruction" in Fed.
This is definitely not obstruction under any OBR rules I've seen.

Obstruction due to a fake tag was originally put in by the Fed as a safety rule to prevent unnecessarily sliding. I don't see a "fake play" as obstruction in Fed.

In a Fed playoff game we had a coach complain when, with his R1 stealing, F4 pretended to be fielding a grounder after the batter hit a pop fly toward F3. We told him no obstruction. A fake play is not necessarily a fake tag, and a fake play is not prohibited under obstruction rules. Faking as if a play is occurring is not obstruction unless the fielder reaches the glove down to fake a tag----period.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by Bfair

Obstruction due to a fake tag was originally put in by the Fed as a safety rule to prevent unnecessarily sliding. I don't see a "fake play" as obstruction in Fed.

Just for the record, FED 8-3-2
"...When a runner is obstructed while advancing or returning to a base by a fielder who neither has the ball nor is attempting to make a play, or a fielder without the ball fakes a tag (my emphesis), the umpire shall award the obstructed runner (my emphesis) and each other runner affected by the obstruction the bases they would have reached, in his opinion, had there been no obstruction. The obstructed runner is awarded a minimum of one base beyond his position on base when the obostruction occured. If any preceding runner is forced to advance by the awarding of a base or bases to an obstructed runner, the umpire shal award this preceding runner the necessary base or bases. Malacious contact supercedes obstruction."

The FED sees the fake tag as obstruction.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ozzy6900

Just for the record, FED 8-3-2
"...When a runner is obstructed while advancing or returning to a base by a fielder who neither has the ball nor is attempting to make a play, or a fielder without the ball fakes a tag (my emphesis), the umpire shall award the obstructed runner (my emphesis) and each other runner affected by the obstruction the bases they would have reached, in his opinion, had there been no obstruction. The obstructed runner is awarded a minimum of one base beyond his position on base when the obostruction occured. If any preceding runner is forced to advance by the awarding of a base or bases to an obstructed runner, the umpire shal award this preceding runner the necessary base or bases. Malacious contact supercedes obstruction."

The FED sees the fake tag as obstruction.

And, so does Bfair (I'm assuming) and so do I.

But fake tag < > fake play, fake catch, ...

Fake tag is always (FED) obstruction. Those other items may be, depending on what else happens (throwing a potato down the line, etc.).

[ozzy6900]

I hope that I did not confuse the issue here. I wanted to state the FED rule on the fake tag supporting the difference. The fake tag is obstruction, the fake play (barring the use of a 2nd ball and/or similar item) is legal. Sorry if I caused any confusion.