Eligible or Ineligible

[MNBlue]

Team K lines up in scrimmage kick formation. These are the numbers of the players for K:

80 - 83 - 60 - 40 - 61 - 70 - 85

---------12--------20

--------------15
--------------63

K then shifts out of this formation and moves into this position (we called it a reverse swinging gate):

80 - 83 - 60 - 63 - 61 - 70---------------------------40
--------------------------------------------------------85

---------------------------12------------------------------20

-----------------------------------------------------15


Since 40 was in under the numbering exception and initially set up between the ends as required, does the shifting of the entire line and putting 40 in an eligible position make him eligible?

My position, based on 7-2-5-b-exception 2, is that it does not since 40 did not initially set in an eligible position and was in under the numbering exception, the shift by K would not make him eligible.

Am I correct or does the shift make 40 eligible?

[ppaltice]

Per NFHS: 40 is still ineligible. Once an eligible player takes the position of an ineligible player under the numbering exception, that player remains ineligible throughout the down.

In Case 7.2.5.D Number 33 positions as an interior lineman between the ends as an exception to the numbering requirement and then shifts to a position in the backfield. RULING: Number 33 remains ineligible.

[BktBallRef]

Just to confirm, you and ppaltice are absolutely correct.

[ump33]

Assuming this is Try attempt, I am not 100% sure you are legal ...

After the shift to your "reverse swinging gate," it appears that you are no longer in scrimmage kick formation per 2-14-2a (you no longer have a “holder with a knee on the ground") or 2-14-2b (#15 does not appear to be 10 yards deep).

If you no longer meet scrimmage kick requirements you can no longer use the “free number exception” and you do not meet the “5 50 thru 79” requirement.

The depth of #15 is the key; if he is 10 yards you are fine. If he is less than 10 yards, I think you are guilty of Illegal Numbering.

2-14-2 . . . A scrimmage kick formation is one in which no player is in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs, and at the snap, either:

a. A player is in position with a knee on the ground 7 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage, in position to be the holder and receive the long snap and with another player 3 yards or less behind that player in position to attempt a place kick, or
b. A player is 10 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage and in position to receive the long snap.

I would appreciate any discussion and or feedback.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by ump33

Assuming this is Try attempt, I am not 100% sure you are legal ...

After the shift to your "reverse swinging gate," it appears that you are no longer in scrimmage kick formation per 2-14-2a (you no longer have a “holder with a knee on the ground") or 2-14-2b (#15 does not appear to be 10 yards deep). .

Unless we start carrying yardsticks, determining exactly 10 yards will remain a judgment call (turf fields are easier).

Regardless, the exception in NF: 7-2-5 clearly states, "A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial positionon his LOS between the ends and he remains an INELIGIBLE forward-pass receiver during the DOWN unless the pass is touched by B."

[ump33]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Unless we start carrying yardsticks, determining exactly 10 yards will remain a judgment call (turf fields are easier).

Regardless, the exception in NF: 7-2-5 clearly states, "A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial positionon his LOS between the ends and he remains an INELIGIBLE forward-pass receiver during the DOWN unless the pass is touched by B."

I do not disagree with the fact that the player in question remains ineligible, I am simply bringing up the point that the formation might be illegal.

As for the carrying a yardstick comment, do you apply that same philosophy to the 6 by 8 dimensions of the Free Blocking Zone? I think it is easy enough to visually differentiate when a player is in “shotgun” (5 – 7 yds) versus “punt” (10 yds) formation. If it is to close to call, apply the “When in Doubt philosophy” … he is 10 yds deep.

[bkdow]

Who is snapping the ball? Is 40 still the center?

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by bkdow

Who is snapping the ball? Is 40 still the center?

Yes

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Am I correct or does the shift make 40 eligible?

Are we talking NFHS or NCAA?

NFHS:
Based on the formation that you list, no he is still ineligible because you cannot shift to make an exception eligible once they take their positions. BUT, this play COULD be legal if you have 2 more players numbered 50-79 because 40 would NOT be an exception as there would be 5 ineligible players in the formation and they all could shift provided their hands were never on the ground.

NCAA:
It could be legal, provided that the center hasn't touched the ball or simulated touching the ball as THAT is what locks the players in for the numbering exception

[bkdow]

Also the Center cannot become eligible unless the ball is touched by a defensive player.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by refbuz

Are we talking NFHS or NCAA?

NFHS:
Based on the formation that you list, no he is still ineligible because you cannot shift to make an exception eligible once they take their positions. BUT, this play COULD be legal if you have 2 more players numbered 50-79 because 40 would NOT be an exception as there would be 5 ineligible players in the formation and they all could shift provided their hands were never on the ground.

NCAA:
It could be legal, provided that the center hasn't touched the ball or simulated touching the ball as THAT is what locks the players in for the numbering exception

It's a Fed game.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by refbuz

NFHS: Based on the formation that you list, no he is still ineligible because you cannot shift to make an exception eligible once they take their positions. BUT, this play COULD be legal if you have 2 more players numbered 50-79 because 40 would NOT be an exception as there would be 5 ineligible players in the formation and they all could shift provided their hands were never on the ground.

NFHS Case Book play 7.5.2.sit b, seems to confirm the above conclusion.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by bkdow

Also the Center cannot become eligible unless the ball is touched by a defensive player.

The center/snapper could be eligible if he has an eligible number AND is on the end of the line.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by refbuz

The center/snapper could be eligible if he has an eligible number AND is on the end of the line.

That doesn't contradict -- or bear any relevance to -- what bkdow wrote.