Fake FG Question

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ajmc

I don't know, "most of the officials across the country" well enough to ask, and I believe even the SEC uses 7 officials, and has for some time. Most formations today seem to utilize wider placements which require the wing officials to position themselves wider, closer to the sideline, but when the formation allows, positioning off the sideline, in as far as the numbers, shouldn't present any problems for good officials retreating when necessary and their presence closer to the action can be helpful in stabalizing the contest from an off the ball and dead ball officiating perspective.

Being off the sideline can also be helpful in ignoring the mindless chatter that, at times, eminates from the sideline. Of course, it all depends on the actual game you're working, and the level the game is being played at. At some levels of youth football camping on a sideline takes the wing official virtually out of the game.

The place for all wing officials to start is off the field. If you are still advocating working on the field *this long* after this mechanic has been abandoned by officials that know what the hell they're doing, then there's really no point in having a discussion.

My eyes work just as well from the restricted area as the do from the numbers. From the restricted area, I can actually officiate without having to get the hell out of the way every other play.

[Reffing Rev.]

Well,

I try to get a video of our games for training and evaluation purposes, and the school from week 8 last season sent me a copy of their game film, which had both week 7 and week 8 on it.

The week 7 white hat allowed the play in question on the video, holder with knee on the ground and having never raised it flipped the ball to the kicker who through a pass into the end zone. 2 point conversion scored and counted.

I recognized the whitehat because he worked a state semifinal I went to last year, and I remembered it because he spent the entire game on the right-hand side of a left-handed quarterback. But hes one of the "good old boys"

(I'm not saying me or my crew deserve a state semifinal, but there are a lot of excellent officials who don't work past the 1st round of playoffs because good old boys don't need a rulebook, casebook, or manual. And they wonder why we have difficulty recruiting and retaining newer officials.)

[Rich]

We had a fake FG somewhere around Week 8 and from my vantagepoint, it was a no-brainer that the holder got up before flipping it to the kicker.

On tape, though, it was a whole lot closer than I thought. Yes, the knee was off the ground, but maybe by a few inches. I think what made it seem less close is that the holder was on his way up to flip and then lead the blocking. At the time, nothing tripped my trigger that it was close to being a dead ball -- even though I *always* look for it, since I've had it happen to me a few times before.

Sometimes you just get lucky, I guess.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The place for all wing officials to start is off the field. If you are still advocating working on the field *this long* after this mechanic has been abandoned by officials that know what the hell they're doing, then there's really no point in having a discussion.

My eyes work just as well from the restricted area as the do from the numbers. From the restricted area, I can actually officiate without having to get the hell out of the way every other play.

I realize that things may be done differently in different parts of the country and am a firm believer in "Whatever works best for you". I agree, at the Varsity level considering the type formations regularly employed in today's game, positioning "off the field" is clearly the prominent, and appropriate, positioning.

However, it is NOT etched in stone and ALL officials, "that know what the hell they're doing" are usually cognizant and willing to adjust to the game, and within that game, to the situation they are confronted with, at least in my experience. If you haven't learned "one size NEVER fits ALL", you eventually will.

I suspect, a number of officials work at multiple levels and multiple ages and sometimes what makes perfect sense when dealing with world class athletes at the Varsity level just doesn't make all that much sense when it's applied at the Pee Wee level, which is where many officials learn their trade.

"Too" close is always dangerous, but moving in,an appropriate distance, in a 4 or 5 man configuration, in the right circumstance can be a BIG help for overall crew coverage and performance. However, "Whatever works best for you" adjusted to match the level you're working at, should prevail.

[jaybird]

..it is NOT etched in stone..

Maybe not, but it is typed on paper in the NFHS Officials Manual.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by ajmc

I realize that things may be done differently in different parts of the country and am a firm believer in "Whatever works best for you". I agree, at the Varsity level considering the type formations regularly employed in today's game, positioning "off the field" is clearly the prominent, and appropriate, positioning.

However, it is NOT etched in stone and ALL officials, "that know what the hell they're doing" are usually cognizant and willing to adjust to the game, and within that game, to the situation they are confronted with, at least in my experience. If you haven't learned "one size NEVER fits ALL", you eventually will.

I suspect, a number of officials work at multiple levels and multiple ages and sometimes what makes perfect sense when dealing with world class athletes at the Varsity level just doesn't make all that much sense when it's applied at the Pee Wee level, which is where many officials learn their trade.

"Too" close is always dangerous, but moving in,an appropriate distance, in a 4 or 5 man configuration, in the right circumstance can be a BIG help for overall crew coverage and performance. However, "Whatever works best for you" adjusted to match the level you're working at, should prevail.

You replied to a post about a varsity playoff game where Rich commented about the officials positioning themselves on the field. He wasn't talking about a pee-wee game. Those situations usually only have 2 or 3 officials so I agree it can be necessary for a wing official to pinch a little to help with action after the ball is dead.

I beileve any time you are working with 4 officials or more and at the HS level and above, start on the sidelines and stay there until the play is over if you are a wing official. It's also a good habit to get into if you are starting out working lower levels. Otherwise you could develop bad habits as you move up.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

I beileve any time you are working with 4 officials or more and at the HS level and above, start on the sidelines and stay there until the play is over if you are a wing official.

If adhering to your belief, every time, works for you, you are likely better off adhering to what you believe is correct. However, it may be just a tad beyond the reach of your headlights to suggest, or imply, that anyone who might disagree somewhat with your belief is "wrong".

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by ajmc

If adhering to your belief, every time, works for you, you are likely better off adhering to what you believe is correct. However, it may be just a tad beyond the reach of your headlights to suggest, or imply, that anyone who might disagree somewhat with your belief is "wrong".

That's fine. I think I'll stick with what I have been taught by excellent high school officials and those working college and NFL. You stick with what you were taught 20+ years ago.

Word count: 50
Comma count: 6

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

That's fine. I think I'll stick with what I have been taught by excellent high school officials and those working college and NFL. You stick with what you were taught 20+ years ago.

Kind of what I was thinking -- How to Learn Officiating by Watching ESPN Classic....

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

That's fine. I think I'll stick with what I have been taught by excellent high school officials and those working college and NFL. You stick with what you were taught 20+ years ago.

No need to get snarky. If you bother to learn to broaden your perspective, you might make it to 20+ years. No matter how much you think you know, or how good you think you might be, neither rarely equates to what you actually need to learn, or how good you actually are.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ajmc

If adhering to your belief, every time, works for you, you are likely better off adhering to what you believe is correct. However, it may be just a tad beyond the reach of your headlights to suggest, or imply, that anyone who might disagree somewhat with your belief is "wrong".

It's not OUR belief ... it's the beliefs of the folks that write the manual, and those that train us and evaluate us. This is not a "do what works for you" area. Additionally, I fail to see ANY benefit to working on the field in a 4 (or more) man system. The distance gained is immaterial - your angle is far more important. I'm not understanding why you seem to think that because YOU believe it, it's accepted. It's not.

(3 man - or 2 - is a completely different animal... without an umpire wings HAVE to pinch in, or R is in for a very very long day.)

[Welpe]

Even with three man mechanics, I don't pinch in until the play is over. Too much is lost by being on the field in my opinion.

bison, you are obviously shooting moonbeams beyond your headlights, which you may, or, may, not, realize but clearly whatever works best for you, is how you should go, if you know, how to do so,maybe, you'll understand that, once you get enough, experience to become, a clock, operator.


Edit: needed a few more ,,,,,,,,,,

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Even with three man mechanics, I don't pinch in until the play is over. Too much is lost by being on the field in my opinion.

bison, you are obviously shooting moonbeams beyond your headlights, which you may, or, may, not, realize but clearly whatever works best for you, is how you should go, if you know, how to do so,maybe, you'll understand that, once you get enough, experience to become, a clock, operator.


Edit: needed a few more ,,,,,,,,,,

Honestly, it depends on a lot of things. If I'm doing 8th or 9th grade with 3, I'm staying on the sideline. Saturday with 2nd graders? Absolutely. Also - if I have 2 games that day, sideline it is. 6? I'm going to cheat in more likely - not just for me but for my crew who is likely also working 6.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I'm not understanding why you seem to think that because YOU believe it, it's accepted. It's not.

Perhaps what you have trouble understanding, is that whether or not you accept a concept, or not, is totally immaterial. If you feel more effective camped out on a sideline for EVERY situation, knock yourself out, but angle has nothing to do with anything, unless you're incapable of responding to what your confronted with.

[Reffing Rev.]

Not to stir the pot any, but Nebraska School Activities Association tells us that when ball is on opposite hash wings should be on the numbers.

So maybe when in Rome one should do as the Romans do.