Taking A Knee

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by asdf

I have two friends that work the Big 10, one works the ACC and three that currently work the NFL.

I will ask the next time I go to a meeting, but one of my associations have several officials in the Midwest Alliance and even one SEC official as well as 3 NFL officials, one who is an umpire. From my understanding is there is communication with the players on these situations and the official come closer and use preventative officiating.

All this does is say that different leagues, crews and associations handle this differently. This should not be a surprise. We all do not work under the same circumstances or with the same people.

Again if you do not want to do it, do not do it. Why is that hard to understand?

Peace

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

It's called preventive officiating.

Understand the concept of preventive officiating, but where do you draw the line to keep from coaching?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all we are not talking about what they do at the college ranks. We are talking about high school and specifically jurisdictions we work not what the Big 12 or Big Ten does.

You were... You said, "Heck at the college level many of the same procedures are followed in my experience as well." It was this to which I was responding.

college ranks which I work there is some communications as our supervisor is a technical advisor for the Big Ten. Never have I heard that we do not communicate something to the players. Again those are college players and they have a better understanding of the consequences and getting ejected can have a bigger affect on their career.

Peace

I find what I'm being told much more believable (admittedly part of this reason was that I have the actual email from them, and know them personally, and I don't personally know those that you refer to ... ) than the assumption that college and god forbid professional players need to be told that the other team is taking a knee when they line up in Victory formation. Seriously. I see this as a possible issue with 10 year olds, but the older they get, the more they GET it (both the way to act when the other team is taking a knee, AND the more serious consequences should they get a USC or ejection). To say college and pro players need to be reminded is simply ludicrous.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

Understand the concept of preventive officiating, but where do you draw the line to keep from coaching?

How is it "coaching", when during the last couple of plays in a 56-6 game you are announcing to the players, "He's taking a knee" ??

That isn't coaching....

Coaching is telling an end in the first quarter ( who is obviously supposed to be off the line, and isn't ) to get back because he's covering up his tight end.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

You are totally off base here...taking a knee at the end of the game is a special situation...it is not like every other play during the game no matter what you think.

What if it is at the end of the first half instead of at the end of the game?

It isn't a special situation. The offense is just running the play that they feel will give them the best chance to win the game. The defense knows the time is about to run out so they have to get the ball back.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My umpire does tell the defense not to fire out

This is by far the dumbest thing said in this entire discussion. B is down by 5 points at the end of the game and their only chance of getting the ball back is recovering a muffed snap but the umpire tells the defense to just stand there.

Ok, you want to ask the team if they are taking a knee....pretty stupid, you should be able to figure it out on your own. Same for telling the defense, they aren't stupid. But to tell the defense not to fire out basically means the game is over. You might as well just hold the ball up and walk off the field and stop wasting everyone's time.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by asdf

How is it "coaching", when during the last couple of plays in a 56-6 game you are announcing to the players, "He's taking a knee" ??

That isn't coaching....

Coaching is telling an end in the first quarter ( who is obviously supposed to be off the line, and isn't ) to get back because he's covering up his tight end.

No, but "don't fire off," or "don't hit him" would be.
Also, some would say that the "coaching" example you just gave is a perfect example of "preventive officiating."
In both situations you are trying to keep a player from committing a foul.

[ppaltice]

This thread has ballooned.

My thought is if you are going to tell Team B to play differently because of something Team A told you, you might as well just hold the ball up and end the quarter. Why even go through the motions?

Team B may be holding onto the glimmer of hope that there will be a muffed snap. And in the event that there is a muffed snap, Team B may be handcuffed from the possibility of recovering the loose ball because the officials have interjected themselves into the game.

When Team A tells me they are taking a knee, I tell them that they still have to block, but we will have a fast whistle.

I only talk to Team B if we have had issues leading up to this point that would make me think they would take a cheap shot. But I probably would have already had that discussion prior to the end of the game.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

This thread has ballooned.

My thought is if you are going to tell Team B to play differently because of something Team A told you, you might as well just hold the ball up and end the quarter. Why even go through the motions?

Team B may be holding onto the glimmer of hope that there will be a muffed snap. And in the event that there is a muffed snap, Team B may be handcuffed from the possibility of recovering the loose ball because the officials have interjected themselves into the game.

When Team A tells me they are taking a knee, I tell them that they still have to block, but we will have a fast whistle.

I only talk to Team B if we have had issues leading up to this point that would make me think they would take a cheap shot. But I probably would have already had that discussion prior to the end of the game.

Sometimes there seems to be a breakdown in the understanding of who is responsible for what during a football game. Coaches absolutely deserve our respect and have earned our civility as far as answering, reasonable, questions or clarifying rule matters, but their area of responsibility and control ENDS at the sideline. From there in, it’s our area of control and responsibility and we deserve, and have earned, the respect of those outside the sideline.

Sadly, the place to look for the cause of years of progressive breakdown in some of the behaviors displayed regarding inappropriate interactions from outside the lines may well be in our in OUR own mirrors. When the envelope bursts from the inside, it’s more likely the fault of the envelope, far more often than the inside pressure, because the envelope usually has the power to deflate the pressure long before it builds to the bursting point, and may have chosen to ignore the build up.

The only “absolute” about a football game is that NOTHING is absolute. “One size NEVER fits all”, and never will. Players, coaches and fans share one attribute that officials must never embrace; it's really important and matters to them who is going to win. That competitive edge is a vital, necessary and acceptable part of the game but, unfortunately, at times can cause players, coaches or fans to get carried away and exceed acceptable standards and behavior.

That’s why we’re there; to keep things in balance and insure the rules, and their intent are followed and to insure that whatever pressure builds, it’s kept within acceptable limits. We have been given (almost) absolute authority to accomplish that, and we will be held accountable and responsible for how we dispence that authority.

As for this “taking a knee” question. YOU have to decide what YOU think is appropriate for THAT particular situation, which may be totally different than the last similar situation YOU experienced, much less what might have happened elsewhere with someone else. What players, coaches or fans think should be done about a variety of situations under our control and authority is IRRELEVANT, what matters is how we use the authority we’ve been given to do what WE judge to be appropriate and correct.

It's usually wise to take the opportunity to explain unusual or complicated decisions to sidelines, as long as such discussions can be completed in a civil, respectful manner in both directions.

The other side of the coin giving us all that authority is that we will be held totally responsible for how we apply it. When competitive juices, at times can boil over and adversely affect the rational judgment of others, we (and we alone) are expected and responsible to remain calm, exercise sound judgment and maintain control.

Personally, not that “personally” really matters a lick to anyone but me, but if a Captain or Coach tells me they’re taking a knee (busted plays aside), and the situation calls for taking a knee, there will be no fakes and I am perfectly willing to deal with any consequences my judgments might produce.

[Rich]

I simply say "Nothing stupid, guys" and I set up about 5 yards deep instead of 15. As soon as the knee starts to the ground, I make sure my whistle is in my mouth.

I haven't had anyone fake it yet, but sounds like a good time for an inadvertent whistle. (Note the here. Not sure if this means I'm kidding or I'm tweaking those who think preventing bad behavior at the end of a blowout is a terrible idea.)

[asdf]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

No, but "don't fire off," or "don't hit him" would be.
Also, some would say that the "coaching" example you just gave is a perfect example of "preventive officiating."
In both situations you are trying to keep a player from committing a foul.

It's 56-6 and the team with 56 is telling you, we are not going to try to score anymore.

They are going to be relaxed and vulnerable to injury if we let the defense bust their chops.

Same thing if the team with 6 says "we're done".

You really gonna keep that a secret from the defense and let them blast through at the snap?

If you answer yes... please refer to my prior 2nd grade / 2-man comment, because quite honestly, you don't belong working anywhere else.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by asdf

It's 56-6 and the team with 56 is telling you, we are not going to try to score anymore.

They are going to be relaxed and vulnerable to injury if we let the defense bust their chops.

Same thing if the team with 6 says "we're done".

You really gonna keep that a secret from the defense and let them blast through at the snap?

If you answer yes... please refer to my prior 2nd grade / 2-man comment, because quite honestly, you don't belong working anywhere else.

You seem obsessed with the blowout. This topic (until you brought it in) was not about a blowout. I believe that all of us do understand the difference between kneeling at 56-6 vs 13-12. However, those of us who subscribe to the "If they take a knee, no nonsense" method do not have to change what we do based on the score. JR has already says he does. You have not, so I'll ask - do you give your "He's taking a knee" speech in a 13-12 kneeldown situation?

The problems mentioned with that approach, I think we can all agree, don't exist at 56-6. But at 13-12, telling the defense to play off or not hit ... and/or flagging the offense should they fake it ... BOTH are contrary to the rules and the spirit of the game.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by asdf

It's 56-6 and the team with 56 is telling you, we are not going to try to score anymore.

They are going to be relaxed and vulnerable to injury if we let the defense bust their chops.

Same thing if the team with 6 says "we're done".

You really gonna keep that a secret from the defense and let them blast through at the snap?

If you answer yes... please refer to my prior 2nd grade / 2-man comment, because quite honestly, you don't belong working anywhere else.

Not that I really care what you say or think (I don't) but why am I concerned about whether or not one team or the other is "relaxed and vulnerable to injury?" They know the rules of football, and they better get ready for a hit when the ball is snapped. If you think it's your job to make sure the offense knows that when the ball is snapped they need to protect themselves, then maybe you need to go back down there to kiddie ball and do some offici-coaching. I prefer to stay up here and play with the big boys, thank you.

[asdf]

Um, I believe you brought up the words never and every.

Wouldn't that include blowouts ??

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

NEVER tell the defense what to do. Go into EVERY kneeling situation as if the offense is going to fake it. This might only happen to you once in a lifetime, or never, but if you aren't ready and/or you've told the defense what to do, then any fallout is your fault.

AT MOST - tell them something like, "If they take a knee, no nonsense." Or "Don't hit anyone after the whistle, boys." AT MOST.

At youth ball, you might want to be more specific, but unless the league has a sportsmanship rule forbidding fake knee-plays, you better preface your warning with IF.

Whereas, I responded with....

Originally Posted by asdf

"Never" and "Every" ???

When's the last time you saw a 56-6 game end with the offense taking a knee and the defense going balls out to make the tackle?

You don't see it because the officials told the guys that "they are taking a knee."

When the situation calls for the announcement, announce it.

If you don't know if the siutation calls for it, then you have a lot of work to do.

Followed by....

Originally Posted by asdf

Exactly !!!

Why let something stupid happen at the end of the game when you have been working hard all game long to prevent it?

Hence, at 56-6 we tell our kids "they're taking a knee".

At 17-14, we are signaling to our crew members to "stay alert, see the ball, the game's not over."

Next time, take a second to read what's been posted. You might see that we agree from time to time.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

If you asked the coach and he tells you he's running a reverse, and you tell the defense and he changes his mind ... what are your responsibilities there?

Let the coaches coach, let the players play, and let the officials officiate.

Then he shouldn't have told me he was taking a knee...or he can call timeout. If he changed he mind I would be fair and tell the defense that he is "running a play."

[asdf]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

Not that I really care what you say or think (I don't) but why am I concerned about whether or not one team or the other is "relaxed and vulnerable to injury?" They know the rules of football, and they better get ready for a hit when the ball is snapped. If you think it's your job to make sure the offense knows that when the ball is snapped they need to protect themselves, then maybe you need to go back down there to kiddie ball and do some offici-coaching. I prefer to stay up here and play with the big boys, thank you.

Now I know where I have seen you officiate...

You are the guy who threw the flag for an illegal shift on the final kneel down play in the 56-6 game I was referring to.