Taking A Knee

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Ahh yes, I don't understand how rules are written. Maybe someday I will be intelligent enough to see that the offense trying to make the defense think that there is a problem and that the snap is not imminent is practically the same thing as an official asking the coach of the offense what type of play they will be running and then the offense not running that type of play. Looking back I must have been crazy to think that those were different.

I do not know whether you are intelligent, I just know that because you do not agree with the ruling does not mean it does not fit the spirit and intent of the rule or interpretation covered.

Originally Posted by Cobra

You know that teams run fake kneel down plays, you admitted that you have seen it on the field. You must have seen a muffed snap before. Anything can happen.

Yes and we shut it down. And it is also spelled out at other levels as well to be illegal. So maybe this is not one of these acceptable fake plays.

Originally Posted by Cobra

It is none of your business to find out what type of play the offense is planning on running. Don't ask anyone. You can probably realize when it may be a kneel down situation and you can probably realize when A is in a kneel down formation. If you need to say something you can tell the players to "be smart" or "protect yourselves". It is not your job to announce anything to the defense before the snap.

It is? I guess we never ask coaches "Are there any unusual plays that we need to be aware of?" You are right; we have no right to know what they run. So much so that we ask coaches before every game to make us aware of plays they might run so we can be prepared for them and rule on them properly. In some cases tell the coach that play is illegal which they are often unaware. So I guess someone must think we have the right to ask them what plays they are running. Better yet, coaches in my area often go out of their way to tell us they are taking a knee. So I guess they gave us that right?

Peace

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is? I guess we never ask coaches "Are there any unusual plays that we need to be aware of?" You are right; we have no right to know what they run. So much so that we ask coaches before every game to make us aware of plays they might run so we can be prepared for them and rule on them properly.

I guess you think that is the same as asking "what play are you running next?" It could help you officiate in some way so it isn't that stupid....but then you announce what play they told you to the defense and then call a foul if they do not run that play.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Better yet, coaches in my area often go out of their way to tell us they are taking a knee. So I guess they gave us that right?

What play they are running means nothing to you, therefore it is not any of your business. You have no reason to ask.

[bigjohn]

That is why I said this

Rule 1-1-6 Covers this nicely I believe!

ART. 6 . . . The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good
sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The referee’s decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.

The fake kneel down is not covered specifically in the rule book but it stinks of Wrong ball and Where's the Tee? They are both types of deception that is disallowed as is hidden ball if you must have a live ball one to hang your hat on!

[whitehat]

Each crew/association will use their best judgment as to how to handle this. Its not something we should get too dogmatic about.

Careful friends...lest our tone becomes counterproductive to learning...

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by kdf5

It's not our job to tell players what to do or to help coach. It's our job to apply the rules. If a team fakes a kneel down that is not our responsibility nor our fault and if a kid hauls off and whacks someone or otherwise does something wrong or flagrant THEN we go into action.

If I asked the coach or he tells me they are taking a knee and then he fakes it, it is my job and my responsibility to make it right!!!!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Cobra

I guess you think that is the same as asking "what play are you running next?" It could help you officiate in some way so it isn't that stupid....but then you announce what play they told you to the defense and then call a foul if they do not run that play.



What play they are running means nothing to you, therefore it is not any of your business. You have no reason to ask.

Why is it hard to understand if you do not want to do something, then do not do it. I am not telling you what to do or really care at the end of the day. I am on a very experienced crew where I am the youngest person in years and I have 15 years in. We do this with great success and we are not alone where I live. If you choose to not ask or care and want the end of the game to end in a PF fest as the videos that were posted show, so be it. We are doing this and it is our duty to find out if a team has given up or is not trying to hurt each other and then give that information. If you do not want to do that, do not do that. Life will go on trust me.

Peace

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

I agree. We had this exact same thing happen last night in a JV game. I was running umpire, team a came up in victory formation, I said nothing. B shot the gap, creamed the QB after his knee was down, we flagged him for a PF, marked off 15. Everybody must have got the message, because the next 2 snaps were clean, game over, band played, cheerleaders cheered, and we all went home.

We let the defense know he is taking a knee to prevent this crap. This is my 19th season of football and I have never ever had a coach question us about telling both sides that they are taking a knee. It seems that we (officials) make a bigger deal out of it than we should.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Cobra

I guess you think that is the same as asking "what play are you running next?" It could help you officiate in some way so it isn't that stupid....but then you announce what play they told you to the defense and then call a foul if they do not run that play.



What play they are running means nothing to you, therefore it is not any of your business. You have no reason to ask.

You are totally off base here...taking a knee at the end of the game is a special situation...it is not like every other play during the game no matter what you think.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Each crew/association will use their best judgment as to how to handle this. Its not something we should get too dogmatic about.

Careful friends...lest our tone becomes counterproductive to learning...

Yep or +1

Peace

[asdf]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

You are totally off base here...taking a knee at the end of the game is a special situation...it is not like every other play during the game no matter what you think.

Exactly !!!

Why let something stupid happen at the end of the game when you have been working hard all game long to prevent it?

Hence, at 56-6 we tell our kids "they're taking a knee".

At 17-14, we are signaling to our crew members to "stay alert, see the ball, the game's not over."

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

If I asked the coach or he tells me they are taking a knee and then he fakes it, it is my job and my responsibility to make it right!!!!

If you asked the coach and he tells you he's running a reverse, and you tell the defense and he changes his mind ... what are your responsibilities there?

Let the coaches coach, let the players play, and let the officials officiate.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

If you asked the coach and he tells you he's running a reverse, and you tell the defense and he changes his mind ... what are your responsibilities there?

Let the coaches coach, let the players play, and let the officials officiate.

In our area the coaches tell us. So they obviously want their players protected. And the other coach has the class to realize the game is over and expect the same in return.

As I someone else said on this topic, it seems like officials (mostly on this page) have more of a problem with this than the coaches at the high school level. Heck at the college level many of the same procedures are followed in my experience as well.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

In our area the coaches tell us. So they obviously want their players protected. And the other coach has the class to realize the game is over and expect the same in return.

As I someone else said on this topic, it seems like officials (mostly on this page) have more of a problem with this than the coaches at the high school level. Heck at the college level many of the same procedures are followed in my experience as well.

Peace

I have 2 friends that do major college football - 1 Southland, 1 Big 12. I asked them whether they say anything to teams or if coaches say anything to them on a taking-a-knee situation.

One said, "Eff no" to the first question and "If I need a coach to tell me they are taking a knee when they line up in victory, I need a new job."

The other said, "No, never. If we did, it would be frowned upon - these guys know how to act." to the first one, and "No, why would they." to the second.

[asdf]

I have two friends that work the Big 10, one works the ACC and three that currently work the NFL.

They all say they alert the guys. They all tell me that if something happens and it's determined that preventative measures were not taken, they can make other plans for the following week.

Like it has been said before... depends on where you are working...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I have 2 friends that do major college football - 1 Southland, 1 Big 12. I asked them whether they say anything to teams or if coaches say anything to them on a taking-a-knee situation.

One said, "Eff no" to the first question and "If I need a coach to tell me they are taking a knee when they line up in victory, I need a new job."

The other said, "No, never. If we did, it would be frowned upon - these guys know how to act." to the first one, and "No, why would they." to the second.

First of all we are not talking about what they do at the college ranks. We are talking about high school and specifically jurisdictions we work not what the Big 12 or Big Ten does.

But at the college ranks which I work there is some communications as our supervisor is a technical advisor for the Big Ten. Never have I heard that we do not communicate something to the players. Again those are college players and they have a better understanding of the consequences and getting ejected can have a bigger affect on their career.

Peace