Taking A Knee

[Canned Heat]

If this is done correctly and with good communications, 99 times out of 100 the coach and/or QB will be mentioning that they are going to a knee. I can tell you with utmost cetainty that if they tell me they're going to a knee and I tip off the D, and they don't go to a knee....there's going to be a flag. And don't start with the crap about for what?? 1) Not following an offical's directive. 2) Using deceit on an opponent. Rule 9-9-3 or a host of others if you wanted to get technical.

I make sure to have my ump tip-off and communicate to the defense that they're going down to a knee and not to do anything foolish.

While he's doing that, I tell the QB to come back and immediately down to a knee....younger HS and youth, I will also tell the coach or have my wing tell the coach.

Never once in 16 years have I had a problem with this...nor, has anyone ever ran anything other than the kneel down. This shouldn't be a big deal....if anything, especially in big rivalry or a monster blowout....this is where you keep things from getting out of hand.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You were... You said, "Heck at the college level many of the same procedures are followed in my experience as well." It was this to which I was responding.

I find what I'm being told much more believable (admittedly part of this reason was that I have the actual email from them, and know them personally, and I don't personally know those that you refer to ... ) than the assumption that college and god forbid professional players need to be told that the other team is taking a knee when they line up in Victory formation. Seriously. I see this as a possible issue with 10 year olds, but the older they get, the more they GET it (both the way to act when the other team is taking a knee, AND the more serious consequences should they get a USC or ejection). To say college and pro players need to be reminded is simply ludicrous.

Actually I know many Big 10/MAC/Missouri Valley officials personally (many are my friends in person). So much so that a few have reviewed tapes of games I was involved in. When I worked the State Final one of those individuals was a crew chief in the Big 10. So whether you know someone or not is not the point. I know people too. They still follow the similar procedures. Maybe they use different language or they wait until the "victory formation" takes place, but they do talk to players. I am not talking about people that I know from a far, I am talking about people that know me on a first name basis because we have either been to the same clinics. As a matter of fact the college crew chief has worked or been assigned to work college ball in the Big 10 and other conferences while not being on a regular crew. He asked me to work college ball for years and I finally joined his crew as an alternate. I do not need to email someone; I can pick up the phone and call them.

And if you knew anything about college ball, there are officials that have been doing basic things very differently all over the country for years. The Big 10 does not always do what the Big 12 does or the SEC does not do what the ACC does. And I did not say they do this exactly how we would in high school; I said they have similar interactions.

Better yet I will ask my high school crew chief who has been doing college for a long time and since he is an umpire I will see what he tells me. Because when I worked college the other week we told players things as the winning team was in the victory formation. So I will ask specifically but you will still claim no one does this because you say so.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Cobra

This is by far the dumbest thing said in this entire discussion. B is down by 5 points at the end of the game and their only chance of getting the ball back is recovering a muffed snap but the umpire tells the defense to just stand there.

Ok, you want to ask the team if they are taking a knee....pretty stupid, you should be able to figure it out on your own. Same for telling the defense, they aren't stupid. But to tell the defense not to fire out basically means the game is over. You might as well just hold the ball up and walk off the field and stop wasting everyone's time.

I will put it this way. I will put his experience and respect of his fellow official at the high school and college ranks up against what you say any day. Do what works for you; we will do what works for us. Honestly who gives a damn at the end of the day what you do. I do not have to work with you.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Cobra

It is totally different. Just read the comment at the end of the case play you are talking about.

"Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal."

Where's the tee and wrong ball are illegal because they are actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is a problem and the snap is not imminent. The coach yelling out "we're taking a knee" does not make the defense think the snap is not imminent because of some sort of a problem....in fact it is neither a problem nor making the defense think that the snap is not imminent.

If you are going to try to say that this is covered by unfair acts at least say that it is something not covered under the rules, don't cite a case play which doesn't support your argument.

No case play is all inclusive. Even you should know that. If the coach yells that he's going to take a knee to decieve the defense, then that meets the definition of an unfair act.

Originally Posted by BroKen62

Understand the concept of preventive officiating, but where do you draw the line to keep from coaching?

I don't see how "Be smart guys, if he takes a knee, don't hit him," could be considered coaching. But if that's the issue, then "Be smart guys. Don't do anything stupid," addresses both teams.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No case play is all inclusive. Even you should know that. If the coach yells that he's going to take a knee to decieve the defense, then that meets the definition of an unfair act.

It is exclusively, "In the opinion of the Referee" (NF: 9-9-5) that determines what is improper.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by ajmc

It is exclusively, "In the opinion of the Referee" (NF: 9-9-5) that determines what is improper.

Exactly. If in the referee's opinion the coach deliberately tried to deceive the defense, that's all that needed.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by asdf

Now I know where I have seen you officiate...

You are the guy who threw the flag for an illegal shift on the final kneel down play in the 56-6 game I was referring to.

HA HA HA Now that was funny

[SamG]

Speaking as a fan...

Is a 'fake kneel down' play illegal?

If not and a coach tells you they have a fake kneel play during your pre-game meeting, are you going to allow them to run the play at the end of the game?

Which leads to (addressed to the guys who tell the defense a kneel down is coming)...

I *ASSUME* you guys all work the same areas. I further *ASSUME* the players recognize you. So if a team has a fake kneel play, AND tells you they're going to run A play, does your silence to the defense tip off the defense? I'm also assuming players from middle school on up can recognize the victory formation, so they see the victory formation, but the official who's told them every time the offense is going to kneel DOESN'T tell them this time, which means the formation is a fake.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by SamG

Speaking as a fan...

Is a 'fake kneel down' play illegal?

If not and a coach tells you they have a fake kneel play during your pre-game meeting, are you going to allow them to run the play at the end of the game?

Which leads to (addressed to the guys who tell the defense a kneel down is coming)...

I *ASSUME* you guys all work the same areas. I further *ASSUME* the players recognize you. So if a team has a fake kneel play, AND tells you they're going to run A play, does your silence to the defense tip off the defense? I'm also assuming players from middle school on up can recognize the victory formation, so they see the victory formation, but the official who's told them every time the offense is going to kneel DOESN'T tell them this time, which means the formation is a fake.

It's really splitting hairs and becomes a tough one with this the way it is put. If they take successive kneel downs...I would say the same to the QB or caoch each time to take 2 steps back and go down...reapeatedly until the whistle. Not to mention....running a play after successive kneel downs is incredibly "bush league" and would probably make for an interesting handshake at the end of regulation.

If a team hurries to the line and tells it's players "spike it" or says "hurry up" assuming they will spike the ball to stop the clock, but then throw a pass...you're caught in la la land as an official. You hurry to get the ball set, get your ump or yourself out of the way and let the cards fall where they do. If the team says outright to ME that they are taking a knee....they better take it or there's some laundry coming out. The game is one of deception and sometimes on-field trickery (hook and ladder play, FI), but using the officials in any way would be an immediate foul on my field.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by SamG

Speaking as a fan...

Is a 'fake kneel down' play illegal?

Under NCAA rules it is not illegal per se but simulating taking a knee causes the ball to become dead.

Under Fed, there is no prohibition against it.

[SamG]

Something else I thought of...

If A is leading as time is running out (whether by 1 or by 50) is there really a reason to run a 'fake kneel'? I'm thinking A's coach will be keeping up with how many TO's team B has, how much time on the clock, etc.

The more appropriate situation would be a TIED game, less than a minute to go. THEN a coach may try a fake... team B thinks A is playing for OT & relaxes, A runs the fake and gets the score/big gain to set up the score.

Which still leads to my question about team B players notice the official ISN'T saying A is taking a knee = A has a play on.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Under NCAA rules it is not illegal per se but simulating taking a knee causes the ball to become dead.

At what point is the simulation? Victory formation, snap, QB takes two steps back and... if he ducks is that the simulation? I'm not trying to be an a--, I really want to know.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SamG

Something else I thought of...

If A is leading as time is running out (whether by 1 or by 50) is there really a reason to run a 'fake kneel'? I'm thinking A's coach will be keeping up with how many TO's team B has, how much time on the clock, etc.

The more appropriate situation would be a TIED game, less than a minute to go. THEN a coach may try a fake... team B thinks A is playing for OT & relaxes, A runs the fake and gets the score/big gain to set up the score.

Which still leads to my question about team B players notice the official ISN'T saying A is taking a knee = A has a play on.

I'll tell you EXACTLY how it happened ... or happens.

Team B is completely out of the playoffs. Team A needs to not only win, but win by 8 to win a tiebreaker to make the last slot of the playoffs. A is up by 4 with 30 seconds to go on the B 20. A lines up in victory (and had practiced this all week for EXACTLY this scenario). QB pretends to bobble snap. TE takes one firm step at the snap and pretends to give up on the play, then darts to the right corner as QB throws him the ball - no one on the defense moved.

That one actually happened - I was not there, but we ALL heard about it.

Another plausible scenario would be next year when Team B above plays Team A, and is up by 20 ... and wants payback.

And a far more common possibility would be from your own 40-ish at the end of the HALF. Act like you're taking your 6 pt lead to the locker room, lineup in victory and fake it. This one ACTUALLY happened in the Texas Tech v. Texas game 2 years ago. Unfortunately Mike Leach was unaware that if his QB went toward the ground as if taking a knee, the ball was dead in NCAA. If he'd not have acted as if he was going down, he would have caught Texas completely unaware.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SamG

At what point is the simulation? Victory formation, snap, QB takes two steps back and... if he ducks is that the simulation? I'm not trying to be an a--, I really want to know.

Yes... any motion toward the ground in a knee situation or formation is what we're told to kill.

[jemiller]

The offensive QB tells us, and we inform the opposing team. I actually position myself very close to the LOS to prevent any issues. They have to make an accurate and complete snap, but once it is done the QB goes to the knee and the play is over. JIM