Retracting a Penalty Decision

[Fan10]

I saw an odd sequence of events in the Alabama/Fla International game last night. Following an Alabama touchdown, UA committed a false start on the extra point. The ball was moved back to the 8 for the retry. Then, on the second attempt, as the kick went through the goal posts, one of the officials under the posts signaled good while the other one came charging out from under the posts into the end zone with no signal. Instead, he was counting players.

As the teams were going off the field, he kept counting, and as he finished, he dropped a flag. Penn Wagers, the referee, then gave the signal for illegal participation against Fla International. At this point, both teams had already reached the sideline. And, Wagers went over to the UA sideline and found Alabama Coach Nick Saban. The two talked for probably a minute after which Wagers turned on the microphone and announced that we would go 1/2the distance to the goal and retry.

Saban then sent his offense onto the field to go for 2 as the umpire marked the ball at the 4 (Remember that the ball had been moved back to the 8 because of UA's false start). At that point, a very upset Saban called timeout and went to Wagers asking why it was being marked at the 4. After a short conversation, Saban then sent the extra point team back onto the field, and the third PAT was good.

Obviously, Saban momentarily forgot that the line of scrimmage was the 8, or he otherwise would have declined. I obviously don't know what was said between Saban and Wagers during the conversation they had about the penalty option. I was curious as to whether Wagers told him that the ball would be marked at the 4 or whether he told him it would be half the distance. And, even if he did tell him 1/2 the distance, it's still Saban's responsibility to know that 1/2 the distance is the 4, not the 1 1/2.

I'm wondering though if it is possible for a coach (or a captain) to retract their decision if it is obvious that they were confused about what exactly they were agreeing to.

[jaybird]

If the first kick try was good, why did they accept the penalty and then end up kicking the try again? Proof that college coaches can be as dim as some high school coaches.

[Fan10]

Originally Posted by jaybird

If the first kick try was good, why did they accept the penalty and then end up kicking the try again? Proof that college coaches can be as dim as some high school coaches.

He thought that he was getting the ball at the 1 1/2 and wanted to go for 2 from there. When he realized it was at the 4, he realized his mistake.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Fan10

He thought that he was getting the ball at the 1 1/2 and wanted to go for 2 from there. When he realized it was at the 4, he realized his mistake.

That doesn't answer jaybird's question. After that "realization," it was still not too late to decline the penalty.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by mbyron

That doesn't answer jaybird's question. After that "realization," it was still not too late to decline the penalty.

NF:2-32-5-c, clearly designates the "Captain" to "represent his team during: (c) Penalty decisions following a foul". NF:10-1, states, "a captain's decision may not be revoked".

Although it's fairly common practice to explain penalty options to a captain, within earshot of his coach who may subsequently advise the captain on what decision to make, at the NFHS level, the actual choice should be made by the captain. Although the captain may be delivering the preferences and instructions of the coach (100%) the actual official decision should be delivered by the captain.

[jaybird]

..the actual official decision should be delivered by the captain.

Coach: I want to decline the penalty.
Referee: Sorry coach, I can't accept that. I have to have a decision from a captain.
Coach: Both captains were injuried and they are at the hospital.
Referee: Go get one of them for me.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ajmc

NF:2-32-5-c, clearly designates the "Captain" to "represent his team during: (c) Penalty decisions following a foul". NF:10-1, states, "a captain's decision may not be revoked".

Although it's fairly common practice to explain penalty options to a captain, within earshot of his coach who may subsequently advise the captain on what decision to make, at the NFHS level, the actual choice should be made by the captain. Although the captain may be delivering the preferences and instructions of the coach (100%) the actual official decision should be delivered by the captain.

Rulebook officiating lacking common sense.

On complex penalties or when I'm close to the team bench, I ask the coach every time. It's quicker and leaves no room for the kid screwing it up.

Rule #1: Do not let the kid screw up by making the wrong choice.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Fan10

I saw an odd sequence of events in the Alabama/Fla International game last night. Following an Alabama touchdown, UA committed a false start on the extra point. The ball was moved back to the 8 for the retry. Then, on the second attempt, as the kick went through the goal posts, one of the officials under the posts signaled good while the other one came charging out from under the posts into the end zone with no signal. Instead, he was counting players.

As the teams were going off the field, he kept counting, and as he finished, he dropped a flag. Penn Wagers, the referee, then gave the signal for illegal participation against Fla International. At this point, both teams had already reached the sideline. And, Wagers went over to the UA sideline and found Alabama Coach Nick Saban. The two talked for probably a minute after which Wagers turned on the microphone and announced that we would go 1/2the distance to the goal and retry.

Saban then sent his offense onto the field to go for 2 as the umpire marked the ball at the 4 (Remember that the ball had been moved back to the 8 because of UA's false start). At that point, a very upset Saban called timeout and went to Wagers asking why it was being marked at the 4. After a short conversation, Saban then sent the extra point team back onto the field, and the third PAT was good.

Obviously, Saban momentarily forgot that the line of scrimmage was the 8, or he otherwise would have declined. I obviously don't know what was said between Saban and Wagers during the conversation they had about the penalty option. I was curious as to whether Wagers told him that the ball would be marked at the 4 or whether he told him it would be half the distance. And, even if he did tell him 1/2 the distance, it's still Saban's responsibility to know that 1/2 the distance is the 4, not the 1 1/2.

I'm wondering though if it is possible for a coach (or a captain) to retract their decision if it is obvious that they were confused about what exactly they were agreeing to.

Is it ever obvious? What if they'd sent out their regular offense just to see what defense they would face, and then, "Oops...I meant to decline the penalty."?

[Big2Cat]

If you watch in most NCAA games, like Ohio State v. USC for example...the referee only looked to the coaches for penalty decisions anymore. He didn't ask for captains--just looked to the coach and went from there.

[jaybird]

The NFL guys do this as well.
I guess we are to surmise that teenagers are better capable of making penalty decisions than 20 or 30 year olds.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Rulebook officiating lacking common sense.

On complex penalties or when I'm close to the team bench, I ask the coach every time. It's quicker and leaves no room for the kid screwing it up.

Rule #1: Do not let the kid screw up by making the wrong choice.

With all due respect RichMSN you are simply wrong, and what's worse unnecessarily so. Perhaps I overstated somewhat suggesting, "it's fairly common practice to explain penalty options to a captain, within earshot of his coach who may subsequently advise the captain on what decision to make", but those who have mastered that ability are able to accomplish what you are suggesting, without ignoring the clearly stated rule.

It's really not up to either one of us to determine if the player selected as a team captain is smart enough or mature enough to make the decisions his team, and the rules, have entrusted him to do. It's not really hard at all to involve a coach, subtlety, in the decision process to whatever extent deemed necessary, without ignoring the team captain and insulting his intelligence.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by ajmc

With all due respect RichMSN you are simply wrong, and what's worse unnecessarily so. Perhaps I overstated somewhat suggesting, "it's fairly common practice to explain penalty options to a captain, within earshot of his coach who may subsequently advise the captain on what decision to make", but those who have mastered that ability are able to accomplish what you are suggesting, without ignoring the clearly stated rule.

It's really not up to either one of us to determine if the player selected as a team captain is smart enough or mature enough to make the decisions his team, and the rules, have entrusted him to do. It's not really hard at all to involve a coach, subtlety, in the decision process to whatever extent deemed necessary, without ignoring the team captain and insulting his intelligence.

Al, give me all the complex words you can conjure but you illustrate all the understanding of someone whose complete empirical knowledge comes from Madden Football.

The reason experienced Rs do not rely absolutely on the captain for penalty decisions is because football is complex and some penalty decisions depend upon the complete knowledge of a team's ability and strategy somethng that may not be known by a captain. The coaching staff may make a penalty decision based upon the ability of the players or it could be the coaching staff has a strategy beyond the simple penalty decision. Remember a good team is a team and a captain knows his role and relies upon his coach for guidance even at the pro level, or, more so at the pro level.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ajmc

With all due respect RichMSN you are simply wrong, and what's worse unnecessarily so.

I'll give your opinion all that it deserves. That's enough, now.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

Al, give me all the complex words you can conjure but you illustrate all the understanding of someone whose complete empirical knowledge comes from Madden Football.

The reason experienced Rs do not rely absolutely on the captain for penalty decisions is because football is complex and some penalty decisions depend upon the complete knowledge of a team's ability and strategy somethng that may not be known by a captain. The coaching staff may make a penalty decision based upon the ability of the players or it could be the coaching staff has a strategy beyond the simple penalty decision. Remember a good team is a team and a captain knows his role and relies upon his coach for guidance even at the pro level, or, more so at the pro level.

Ed, for someone with so much "empirical knowledge" about a team's, "ability and strategy somethng that may not be known by a captain", you have a glaring lack of reading comprehension.

Nothing I suggested has the slightest thing to do with excluding a coach from participating in the overall decision process regarding the choice following a penalty. It's about giving a captain the respect he has earned, without your input or knowledge.

There's little difference, in the actual results of showing appropriate deference to the standard protocol, in securing a "team" conclusion on penalty choices, and blowing off a team captain and going over his head because YOU'RE too important to waste time talking to (or through) a lowly captain, except that one way acknowledges earned respect and your way trashes it.

If you can't figure out an effortless way to satisfy both ends of that string by yourself, my giving you the words likely isn't really going to help.

[parepat]

Attended a clinic over the summer. Was told by both D-1 college and NFL officials that the mechanic is to take the captain out of the discussion and deal w the coach directly.

Now back to the post, obviously Saban was not allowed to retract his acceptance, otherwise he wouldn't have kicked again. He either forgot where the ball was or was given bad info. I'd bet on the former.

At what point at the collegiate level is he stuck?