Discussion point for upcoming meeting

[wisref2]

One of our local crew chiefs says he is going to call the following a shift. We're going to discuss at a future meeting and would like some of your feelings/thoughts about it.

Quarterback A1 is in a shotgun formation. He is standing straight up. Right before the snap, he bends over at the waste so that he now in a crouching position rather than standing straight up. If the ball is snapped less than one second later, it is an illegal shift.

I don't see this as a shift or motion. In your comments, please provide any rule references or casebook situation you feel may add to the discussion.

And just a lighter note - had a freshman game yesterday between two mismatched teams. Had the following call that I decided to take a pass on.

The better team punts (ahead about 30-0). R3 blocks K1 below the waste about six times during the return. I saw every one. R gained no advantage by the blocks. Important point - R3 (the blocker) is about 4'6" tall. K1 is about 6'2" tall. When standing upright, R3's helmet comes to just above K1's waste. All blocks happened as both were standing upright.

[MRH]

Sorry, no manual available for reference.

If the QB were to be standing behind the center and then goes under him to receive a hand to hand snap this is a shift. So based on your description, I would call it a shift but I would have to see the actual movement. Sounds like a judgement call.

Regarding your return scenario, I'd let it go.

[buckrog64]

I don't have anything unless he takes a step of some sort that might make it illegal. I've seen QBs bend at the waist to receive the snap while someone is in motion. Nothing there to get excited about in my opinion. But if QB is set, then takes a single step forward with someone in motion, I'm calling that an illegal shift.

[wisref2]

That was the argument I got in disagreeing with the call. Here's why I don't that it is reason:

By rule, a QB going under center is a shift. It is a shift because he is changing position (the definition of a shift) by going from a position that indicates that a snap is not imminent to a position that indicates that a snap is imminent. And he's going from a position in which he can't receive a snap to one that he can receive a snap - that is a change of position.

That is not the case in a shotgun formation because the ball could be snapped at any time no matter his position.

[mbyron]

This case is illuminating. Probably the basis of the official thinking a crouch is a shift. See esp. the COMMENT.

Originally Posted by 2009 Case Book

7.2.7 SITUATION: The quarterback by voice command has signaled his teammates
to assume a set position while he is standing upright behind the center.
The quarterback steps forward and places his hands under the center to receive
the snap: (a) at the instant the snap is made; or (b) which is made after he is
motionless, but prior to one second having elapsed; or (c) which is made after he
is motionless for one second; or (d) which is made after he is motionless for one
second, but while he is stepping backward with one foot as the snap is made.
RULING: In (a), it is illegal motion. In (b), it is an illegal shift. In (c), it is legal. In
(d), it is legal unless a teammate is also in motion at the snap. COMMENT: If the
quarterback drops his hands under the snapper without stepping forward, it is a
shift and not motion. (2-39; 7-2-6)

[Ed Hickland]

Calling the QB for essentially bending over is actually counterproductive because it would not take long for the defensive coordinator to pick up on it. Don't you know by the second series some D-lineman beats the ball to the QB.

I would whisper in the ear of the head coach the QB is tipping off the snap. That would be the end of that.

[ddn]

So what unfair advantage is A1 gaining by bending at the waist prior to the snap that the official sees the need to eliminate in order to keep the game fair???

Also, following the above logic, a QB in a shotgun formation that raises his hands from his sides to in front of him to receive the snap and doesn't have them motionless for 1s would also be guilty of an illegal shift? How about if he moves his head? eyes? blinks an eye?

Sounds like a bit of over zealousness....

[Robert Goodman]

This is why the rules used to refer to shifting by the criterion of motion of both feet. I wonder why they changed that.

[wisref2]

Originally Posted by ddn

a QB in a shotgun formation that raises his hands from his sides to in front of him to receive the snap

Sounds like a bit of over zealousness....

Excellent comparison. I'm going to steal that!

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

This is why the rules used to refer to shifting by the criterion of motion of both feet. I wonder why they changed that.

Could it be because a QB going from a standing position to under center or a player going from a 2 point stance to a 3 point stance would not move both feet?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Could it be because a QB going from a standing position to under center or a player going from a 2 point stance to a 3 point stance would not move both feet?

No, because they didn't care about that then. It was a substantive change, not a clarif'n of something already understood or intended. If the QB looked like he still had body motion forward at the snap to help him with a sneak, it was considered illegal motion. The rule then also meant the QB could give a motion signal by raising & lowering one foot, and that plus the motion of the man in motion did not constitute a shift. It still isn't considered a shift, but that's because officials are now ruling on the intent of the rule, while back then the wording supported them directly.

Robert

[Forksref]

I called a false start on a shotgun QB: bending over and moving his hands in a jerking motion. Had he been slower and smoother, it would have been nothing.

In the OP, I have nothing.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by wisref2

Quarterback A1 is in a shotgun formation. He is standing straight up. Right before the snap, he bends over at the waste so that he now in a crouching position rather than standing straight up. If the ball is snapped less than one second later, it is an illegal shift.

I'm more curious about what to do if the QB stands completely motionless, except he moves his lips to say "hut". Is that illegal motion, too? Must the snapper wait a full second after the "hut" before snapping the ball?

And how about those 300 lbs linemen? Must they quit panting for a full second?

[parepat]

And what about the constant movement of the beating heart. Someone has to put a stop to that as well.