Redding guide play?

[ChickenOfNC]

Page 132, play 15. It appears the ruling is incorrect. Am I missing something?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC

Page 132, play 15. It appears the ruling is incorrect. Am I missing something?

Yes.

For a more complete response, please post the play.

[ChickenOfNC]

Ok, off the top of my head:

4th and 10 from A's 5 yard line. A8 drops into the end zone and throws a forward pass that is tipped by blitzing linebacker B45. The pass is caught by A81, and while still in his end zone, throws another forward pass to eligible A40 incomplete. RULING: B can accept the penalty for a safety, or decline the penalty and take over 1st and 10 from the 5 yard line.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC

Ok, off the top of my head:

4th and 10 from A's 5 yard line. A8 drops into the end zone and throws a forward pass that is tipped by blitzing linebacker B45. The pass is caught by A81, and while still in his end zone, throws another forward pass to eligible A40 incomplete. RULING: B can accept the penalty for a safety, or decline the penalty and take over 1st and 10 from the 5 yard line.

It seems you have an Illegal Forward Pass (NF:7-5-2-e) thrown from A's EZ during a 4th down. The fact that the pass was tipped by B has no bearing on the 2nd forward pass being illegal.

As the Illegal Forward Pass is a spot foul, enforcement would be from inside A's EZ, which would cause a Safety. If the penalty were declined, the down would count and possession would change because A did not make the Line to Gain within 4 downs, resulting in a 1-goal for B, at the A 5 YL.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC

Ok, off the top of my head:

4th and 10 from A's 5 yard line. A8 drops into the end zone and throws a forward pass that is tipped by blitzing linebacker B45. The pass is caught by A81, and while still in his end zone, throws another forward pass to eligible A40 incomplete. RULING: B can accept the penalty for a safety, or decline the penalty and take over 1st and 10 from the 5 yard line.

Sounds correct to me. The first pass ended when it was caught by eligible A81 (2-31-4). A second pass during the down is illegal (7-5-2e).

Enforcement as ajmc wrote.

[ChickenOfNC]

It's my understanding that when an illegal forward pass is declined, the ball is spotted at the spot of the illegal forward pass, which in this case would be the endzone. So, safety whether accepted or declined. Is this incorrect?

[Warrenkicker]

Your assessment sounds right to me. An illegal forward pass is a running play and not a loose-ball play.

[jack015]

Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC

Ok, off the top of my head:

4th and 10 from A's 5 yard line. A8 drops into the end zone and throws a forward pass that is tipped by blitzing linebacker B45. The pass is caught by A81, and while still in his end zone, throws another forward pass to eligible A40 incomplete. RULING: B can accept the penalty for a safety, or decline the penalty and take over 1st and 10 from the 5 yard line.

I agree with you that Reddings ruling is incorrect. When A threw an illegal forward pass from the EZ, the end of the run was in the EZ. Even if B declines, the end of the run is still in the EZ so the results of the play is a safety. (Rule 10.5.4) Look at it this way - if A throws an illegal forward pass from the 45 yard line AND for some reason B declines the foul, the end of the run and the results of the play are A's ball at the 45 and play the next down or it is B's ball if it was a 4th down play and the 45 yard line was short of the line to gain.

[ppaltice]

The guide is not correct. By Rule 8-5-2c leaves no choice but a safety. (I am guessing this will be fixed next year.)

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC

It's my understanding that when an illegal forward pass is declined, the ball is spotted at the spot of the illegal forward pass, which in this case would be the endzone. So, safety whether accepted or declined. Is this incorrect?

I think you nailed it. The succeeding spot would be the spot where the play ended, which in the case of an Illegal Forward Pass would be the spot of the foul, not the previous spot.

As you correctly observed, this play ended in the EZ, so there is no option available for "B" taking over (on downs) at the
5 yard line. The end result is a Safety whether the penalty is accepted or not.

[Da Official]

I guess this is another difference between Fed and NCAA. In NCAA rules, all penalties can be declined and an illegal pass does not result in the play being blown dead.

In NCAA rules, if a player is flagged for an illegal pass, the other team has a right to decline the penalty. In the scenario listed above, under NCAA rules, the defense can accept the penalty resulting in a safety or decline the penalty and take the ball on the loss of downs.

I do not know Fed rules....so maybe Redding applied the NCAA rules on mistake???

[mikesears]

Play is not blown dead unless the illegal forward pass is incomplete. No difference there between NF and NCAA rules.

[Da Official]

Originally Posted by mikesears

Play is not blown dead unless the illegal forward pass is incomplete. No difference there between NF and NCAA rules.

Ok great that is what I wanted to hear. So Rogers is once again correct!

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by Da Official

Ok great that is what I wanted to hear. So Rogers is once again correct!

Enforcement is where the difference is. NCAA, teams have 3 options. NF, teams only have 2.

NCAA: Accept and safety, decline and put ball at spot of foul (also safety), decline and put ball at previous spot.

NF: Accept and safety, decline and put ball at spot of foul (also safety)

[Da Official]

Originally Posted by mikesears

Enforcement is where the difference is. NCAA, teams have 3 options. NF, teams only have 2.

NCAA: Accept and safety, decline and put ball at spot of foul (also safety), decline and put ball at previous spot.

NF: Accept and safety, decline and put ball at spot of foul (also safety)

Mike, can you explain how NCAA rules provide for a 3rd option which includes declining the penalty and putting the ball at the spot of the foul?

When I look at Rule 7-3-2, I do not see the 3rd option. Where can I find this info?

Thanks!