Good Block or penalty?

[bigjohn]

No I have learned a lot from all this.

[TXMike]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

What do you think spins him around to land on his butt? not the block to his shoulder.

This statement essentially removes whatever credibility you had left.

How much football have you watched on film? If you have watched much at all you know that people can see the saem clip and sometimes see different things. Most of us do not see what you see. And my belief is that what you "see" is so far from what most "see" that you should examine why you are seeing something different. It goes back to a proven psychological/neurological concept that says people sometimes see things that are not there because issues inteernal to the viewer. I can give you some references/resources on this phenomenom if you are interested.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

and no flag, walt, Nuttin?

Legal hit, John. The overwhelming majority agree with my assessment. I don't say that to pat myself on the back, simply to point out that we, as officials, sit through interpretation meetings and film sessions and are continually told what is and isn't legal. We've been instructed, nay, trained, to rule this a legal hit.

[bigjohn]

Then there should not be rules agains helmet contact at all then. It does not get called and is not being called on hits that cause concussions and injuries. Leading with the helmet is illegal by rule but not called. It is wrong in my opinion.

This is an NCAA survey but interesting.

http://www.jonheck.com/Articles/Coll...eyResults2.pdf

[bigjohn]

http://www.iahsaa.org/resource_cente...n_Football.pdf

Read the section on blocking and tackling. I don't see those hits I have posted and falling under the recommended and LEGAL techniques.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Then there should not be rules against helmet contact at all then. It does not get called and is not being called on hits that cause concussions and injuries. Leading with the helmet is illegal by rule but not called. It is wrong in my opinion.

The rule is in place for player safety, as you suggest. But football is a contact sport: players get injured all the time on legal hits, most of which have nothing to do with helmet contact, legal or illegal. The rules and the traditions of enforcement aim to compromise between safety and the thrill of the game.

Your opinion seems to be that the current practices of enforcement err on the side of thrill. Most coaches and players with whom I've spoken about safety rules take the opposite view, and regard those rules as overkill. NFHS will continue to tinker with the rules in pursuit of that compromise as they gather data about the way the game is played and the injuries that are most common.

It's one thing to argue that the IHC rule is not as stringent as it should be. It's another to argue that officials aren't enforcing the rule correctly. You're entitled to your opinion about the former (and some might agree with you); you seem to be mistaken about the latter.

[bigjohn]

http://www.jonheck.com/Articles/PositionStatement.pdf

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

http://www.iahsaa.org/resource_cente...n_Football.pdf

Read the section on blocking and tackling. I don't see those hits I have posted and falling under the recommended and LEGAL techniques.

I must be missing something. Are you from Iowa? Many of us here are not from Iowa either. Who cares what Iowa says other than those that officiate and coach and play in Iowa. These are not guidelines that everyone necessarily follows and I am sure the people in Iowa have more to say on these things than just the references you gave.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

http://www.jonheck.com/Articles/PositionStatement.pdf

You must did not see figure 3?

Peace

[bigjohn]

I see zero helmet contact in Fig 3. In the blocks I posted there was definitely helmet contact as well as shoulder contact.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Sorry, but that's not how officials call illegal blocks: we don't infer that they must have happened based on the outcomes. We call them when we see them, and only when we see them (as you seem to be slow to learn).

That is all there is to it. We cannot call what we do not see.

John, I flag illegal helmet contact, when I see it. If IHC fouls were normally distributed amongst officials in this area, I suspect I call it on the higher end of the bell curve than many others but I still call only what I can clearly see.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

YouTube - KNOCK OUT BLOCK!!!

This one is a clean block? or is this the one you agree is butt blocking

Definitely a flag!

If you look at it close enough, you will see the defender's head move well before his torso moves.

This is because the blocker blocks his opponent by making helmet to helmet contact before any contact happens to the blockee's torso.

CANADIAN RULING:

INT with clean hands. Ball was at the A-30 when the illegal block happened. Therefore, Team B 1D/10 @ A-45.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

I see zero helmet contact in Fig 3. In the blocks I posted there was definitely helmet contact as well as shoulder contact.

If the shoulder contact is first (and honestly you will never totally eliminate any helmet contact) then it is not illegal.

It is interesting that you have tried to show a study, which is interesting, but not relevant. If everyone was really interested in player safety, you would across the board advocate hiring more officials to work games and not pay the chain crew more than you do the game officials on any given night (an issue in our area). You claim that officials do not call anything, but you probably have never advocated for more officials on a particular game. And in these clips you have shown, I bet there were no more than 5 officials at one time on those games (and likely fewer). But guys like you that are so worried about coach's safety, probably never factor this in the equation in your remedy. Instead you just say that we do not call it or we do not care, but you put us in a situation where it is harder automatically to cover the game. And this is why the angle of the video is important, because this few at best would have been from a deep wing. A deep wing likely would have not seen the play any different than most of us, but if the other officials knew they had other areas of the field covered, they would maybe see this play better and make a call if they could. I bet that has never crossed your mind or and it is certainly something you have not said. It is one thing to claim something is wrong, it is another thing to find a solution. And if so many officials based on their actual game experience (something you do not have) are telling you they do not see a foul, then you need to do more to advocate more experienced officials on the field if your main concern is player safety. What this tells me that you have likely done none of this, you are not really concerned with that issue, and you just want us to do your job for you. You have even stated earlier that you could not get a kid of yours to stop doing something because the officials were not calling him for IHC, but you knowing sent this kid out to commit illegal acts and you sat by and did nothing. And the player that usually gets hurt, is the player that is using their helmet (which was the case in Figure 2, from the kid from Ole Miss and not only was in a wheel chair, but later died to complications of his football injury). The player that got hit was fine. It just illustrates that you are full of hot air like many coaches that complain about what is not called. You have at your disposal a lot of tools to change the system but you choose not to.

Peace

[bigjohn]

yeah, it is my fault it doesn't get called the way it is supposed to be called, I know.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

yeah, it is my fault it doesn't get called the way it is supposed to, I know.

No one said it was your fault. But if you are really, really, really concerned with player safety, you would stop trying to just point a finger; you would do something to change it. Showing us guidelines from a state than you are not from and most of us are not from does nothing to make players safe. That is really the case when everyone does not follow those guidelines and does not change the number of calls. Remember, most officials in this country are not reading your post (and still most officials here disagree with your judgment on this play) which you claim they do not call. Obviously the ball is in your court if you truly are concerned about player's safety. Better yet, just tell kids to stop playing football. That would be the best thing to do. After all you cannot stop them from committing illegal acts and the officials are not going to change their position just by what you posted.

Peace