Good Block or penalty?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

or you could just call all IHC and reduce the use of the helmet.

How do you propose we start calling fouls we don't see?

Do you really think there are any officials (on this forum at least) that see a clear IHC foul and pass on it?

[bigjohn]

I think we need to see a few more IHC calls based on what the Handbook calls IHC and not technical BS like the shoulder got there a hair sooner so it is not IHC.. The kid lowered his head and delivered a hit with his helmet in all of the clips I posted. I get laughed at when I say something about what you hear, but the sound of a helmet hitting someone has a distinct sound. What happens after the hit does matter because if a kid gets up staggering he probably hit with his head.


The committee recognizes that occasionally a player’s helmet makes inadvertent
contact with an opponent without significant risk of injury to either player.
The committee also recognizes that there are degrees of severity in illegal helmet
contact, and that all types of such contact should be penalized uniformly.

Do you really think any of the ones I posted were inadvertent helmet contact?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Do you really think any of the ones I posted were inadvertent helmet contact?

Yes.

The passages from the handbook and manual that you've posted do not supersede the rule. If the initial contact is not with the helmet, the block is legal and helmet contact is incidental. That's what we look for, and that's how we call it. If you're not satisfied with that, you'll need to talk to the rules committee.

Do you really think that it's impossible for a player to be injured on a legal play?

[bigjohn]

MB, didn't you post this?

My sources are the NFHS Football Handbook and the NFHS Football Officials Manual.


So you are saying that casebook and handbook and S&I don't matter, only the rule book?

All these interpretation meetings and memos and news releases mean nothing?

The pics in the S&I show hands hitting same time as helmet.

[Welpe]

John, it seems the opinion of the majority is that contact is initiated with the shoulders and that the helmet contact comes after the initial contact, not at the same time. This is, by definition (and by illustration in the comic book known as S&I), not a foul.

For there to be an illegal helmet contact foul, the helmet has to be the first part of an offender's body that makes contact with the opponent. That is the rule, if you don't like it, lobby to have it changed.

Lobby to get 7 officials on the field while you're at it, because Jeff's point is exactly right. In a five man crew, nobody is going to see the possible IHC in the second video because it is during an interception return. Both wings, the back judge and the umpire are all behind the play. The referee might see that but it is highly unlikely.

John, if we called everything that looked like a foul, not only would the game last 5 hours long, but you would be in an apoplectic rage on the sideline.

[bigjohn]

I see, so if everything hits at the same time, there is no first. The players were all leaning forward with the helmet getting there first or milliseconds apart. It is very easy to see that officials are looking to not call it.Talk about splitting hairs.

The games would not last any longer if IHC were called, that is a cop out. I can stand on the sidelines and see these fouls but 5 trained officials can not. That is also a cop out.

[HLin NC]

Saw those pics last night at the state clinic Power Point presentation.

In pic#2, note the white arrow moving upward, indicating the blocker is driving the helmet up into the "blockee's" chin. I can honestly state that I have NEVER SEEN THAT in 15 years of officiating FB.

In pic #1, the driving principal is invaribly is the first contact is with the shoulder, hands, etc. Players clunk masks and helmets together all the time, doesn't mean its illegal.

Are the acts as pictured illegal? Definitely. Do they happen? Maybe, but no where near "all the time".

The primary IHC we see is going to be normally referred to as spearing- using the helmet to "punish" the opponent. Blockers just don't lead with the helmet front and/or facemask very often. Its just too unnatural an act.

[bigjohn]

Butt Blocking in 1 and 2 and face tackling in 3 are both tactics which involve driving the face mask, frontal area or top of the helmet directly into an opponent in blocking or tackling respectively. both result in a foul for illegal helmet contact.

It doesn't have to be exactly as the picture shows, read the text.

[Welpe]

The games would not last any longer if IHC were called, that is a cop out.

IHC isn't the only foul you want called more, you've been advocating all sorts of fouls being called more. Guess what, it takes time to enforce penalties.

I can stand on the sidelines and see these fouls but 5 trained officials can not. That is also a cop out.

Two things, you can stand where ever you want in the team box. Officials don't have that luxury, and on an interception and return, most of the officials are going to behind the play. Like it or not, that is a fact.

The second is that often times, coaches will "see" what they want to and it is usually NOT what happened. That is the difference between watching the game with a biased perspective and an impartial one.

[bigjohn]

I don't watch the game, I have my keys just like you do. I watch players.

[Welpe]

Yes but you still see what you want to and that is evidenced by the fact that you are routinely convinced that officials are blind, stupid and incompetent.

I'm not sure how many people between here and the NFHS forum have explained this and other things to you, but somehow, you are smarter and can see better than all of us. I haven't been around as long many of these other posts have been but your rants are tired and repetitive. All they do is serve to piss people off and pollute the forums.

Please let me know when you plan on donning a striped shirt and start calling some Pop Warner games. I'd consider buying a plane ticket just to watch this.

I used to be a football coach and at the time, I thought officiating was easy and that the officials were blind, incompetent fools too. Then I put the stripes on and realized how hard it is to actually have to call a game.

I'm done with this thread, please feel free to have the last word.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

The pics in the S&I show hands hitting same time as helmet.

That's impossible. A static image can't depict time sequences, so it's neither before, after, nor at the same time.

What does the 'S' in "S&I" stand for? Do you know what that means?

[bigjohn]

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

The funny part is you did not even understand the question.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The funny part is you did not even understand the question.

Peace

There's a reason why it's called the "comic book."