substitution vs participation

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

1)The hand on the flag well before the snap and waiting to throw it immediately as the ball was snapped was a tip off.
2)People yelling “get off the field” to the player substituted close to but well before the snap probably gave him a chance to figure out what was going on.
3)The substitution happened during a timeout and the opposing team was slow to return to the field which was a lot of time to do the required count.
4)When I stated correctly rules that contradicted his call, instead of trying to clarify the discrepancy he tried to pick a fight with me, which generally weakens any defense of him.

1. You have to be kidding me. I know I have put my hand on my flag when I was going for me bean bag. There have been other times I reached for my flag but decided to pass on the foul (and, yes, I should be more careful about reaching for my flag until I'm certain there was a foul). More importantly though, why were you watching the official "well before the snap" and didn't take your eyes off him until after the snap? I'm not a coach, but I always thought you watched the play on the field (or, before the snap, wanted to make sure that you were in the correct formation, whatever) rather than spending the entire time watching the officials.

2. We don't officiate based on what the bench says (otherwise we would have 30+ holding calls a game and someone else would be compaining about 'over officiating'). How did the official know you were yelling at the 12th man? Besides weren't you spending all your time watching the official? Maybe the yell occured during the count or caused the official to recount, which he did not finish until the snap?

3. Perhaps the official was making sure the other team was going to get out to the field on time. Also, if your team had 12 in a conference inside the inbounds lines, then this would be a 15 yard dead ball penalty on your team.

4. Well, if he tried to pick a fight, then shame on him. This does not make his call wrong...it just makes his on-field behavior reprehensible. Also, considering you are on here trying to pick a fight, I think that takes any 'defense' away from you. If he made what you feel was an error (and, yeah, officials make them), bring it up on here and we will tell you how it should be--even if it means saying the officials was incorrect. However, when you are so quick to start name calling, we aren't going to be shy about expressing our opinion on the call. He was not necessarily wrong, and you are definitely not right. Now, give it up. The call went against you. Spend less time watching the officials and channel your enthusiam toward coaching your team--it sounds like they could use it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I also have the advantage of having parents and coaches that have witnessed every game I’ve coached. They were appalled by this big bad ref attacking this honest coach with a legitimate concern. I typically address any official as sir or sirs and give any benefit of the doubt to them. My team never whines or complains about any call, they tell captains and/or coaches about them. This in my experience are rare traits.

It is not always what you say, but how you say it. I was not there, but many times coaches claim they are asking a "legitimate question" they are doing it in a way that is not appropriate. And if you cannot handle that, than you need to stop coaching. Also if you knew much about officiating, you would realize that it is not our job or obligation to answer your questions. If we do answer a question, that is done to be courteous. It is not our obligations when we have other game responsibilities. I was not there and I am sure you think you did nothing wrong, but I bet if we asked the officials or other individuals on the crew they might have a different take.

Peace

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

When? maybe if you picture me screaming and throwing things I was disrespectful. However, I was not doing so. I can ask for clarification or an explanation. I can state rules. I was given no explanation and told to check a rule book before opening my mouth (screaming and pointing). I also have the advantage of having parents and coaches that have witnessed every game I’ve coached. They were appalled by this big bad ref attacking this honest coach with a legitimate concern. I typically address any official as sir or sirs and give any benefit of the doubt to them. My team never whines or complains about any call, they tell captains and/or coaches about them. This in my experience are rare traits.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I would consider calling someone an 'idiot' disrespectful.

Plus, it seems to me, that your first post was pretty much a whine. Just how I read it. We have all made mistakes on the field, missed calls, etc., but I think our reaction was pretty justified considering how this all started, and your refusal to accept the truth.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by Patton

Is that what you were doing when you initially refered to him as an "idiot"? You were the one that was incorrect on the rule, not him.

That was a thought and observation. I didn’t call him an idiot. It also is a recap of what happened. A thought popping into my head during an exchange in which he was acting idiotic. I would like to see some evidence of me being incorrect on the rule outside of “12 men on the field” because that obviously is the justification of misapplying participation. Perhaps look at the other 3 sentences each in both rules rather than ignore them.

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I’m now picking up on this guy being an idiot.

Unless Bill Clinton is proofreading for you, I would say that you called him an idiot.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by PSU213

1. You have to be kidding me. I know I have put my hand on my flag when I was going for me bean bag. There have been other times I reached for my flag but decided to pass on the foul (and, yes, I should be more careful about reaching for my flag until I'm certain there was a foul). More importantly though, why were you watching the official "well before the snap" and didn't take your eyes off him until after the snap? I'm not a coach, but I always thought you watched the play on the field (or, before the snap, wanted to make sure that you were in the correct formation, whatever) rather than spending the entire time watching the officials.

2. We don't officiate based on what the bench says (otherwise we would have 30+ holding calls a game and someone else would be compaining about 'over officiating'). How did the official know you were yelling at the 12th man? Besides weren't you spending all your time watching the official? Maybe the yell occured during the count or caused the official to recount, which he did not finish until the snap?

3. Perhaps the official was making sure the other team was going to get out to the field on time. Also, if your team had 12 in a conference inside the inbounds lines, then this would be a 15 yard dead ball penalty on your team.

4. Well, if he tried to pick a fight, then shame on him. This does not make his call wrong...it just makes his on-field behavior reprehensible. Also, considering you are on here trying to pick a fight, I think that takes any 'defense' away from you. If he made what you feel was an error (and, yeah, officials make them), bring it up on here and we will tell you how it should be--even if it means saying the officials was incorrect. However, when you are so quick to start name calling, we aren't going to be shy about expressing our opinion on the call. He was not necessarily wrong, and you are definitely not right. Now, give it up. The call went against you. Spend less time watching the officials and channel your enthusiam toward coaching your team--it sounds like they could use it.

Why do you have to make this about me? maybe looking at the rules would do some good. I'm curious about this situation and considering half are giving one answer and half the opposite (I’m posting on multiple boards) I would say a great deal of confusion exists. Maybe a wise and intelligent official would be able to explain himself using evidence like citations, published situation clarification, or logic. “I do this” is data I look at but don’t lend much weight to. For all I know you have no idea what you are talking about. Stop disrespecting a member of the fraternity

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by PSU213

Unless Bill Clinton is proofreading for you, I would say that you called him an idiot.

I like you creativeness and Clinton refference but notice my use of quotes? That's what was said. The naration is naration.

[Patton]

Rule 9.6.4c - It is illegal participation...To have 12 or more players participating at the snap or free kick.

[Patton]

PENALTY: Illegal participation (Art. 4b-f [live-ball, previous spot]) - (S28) - 15 yards. Like we've all said, "we try to catch this prior to the snap, but if we don't, this is the rule.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is not always what you say, but how you say it. I was not there, but many times coaches claim they are asking a "legitimate question" they are doing it in a way that is not appropriate. And if you cannot handle that, than you need to stop coaching. Also if you knew much about officiating, you would realize that it is not our job or obligation to answer your questions. If we do answer a question, that is done to be courteous. It is not our obligations when we have other game responsibilities. I was not there and I am sure you think you did nothing wrong, but I bet if we asked the officials or other individuals on the crew they might have a different take.

Peace

I agree with your post. My only comment would be Officials have some obligation to communicate with coaches. It goes to the birth of football (when there were no “officials”) First captains then coaches then “officials” refereed the game. Everyone is in it together. Having been all three the attitudes I’m seeing here are scary and contrary to the spirit of the game.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

How could the rule possibly be applied correctly under the circumstances? The official knowingly disregarded a dead ball foul in order to call a live ball foul. That is either malicious or ignorant, both being incorrect.

I count players before each play. If I have something different than 11 I count again. If I verify that there's more than 11 on the field then I'll flag it as an illegal sub and kill the play. If the ball is snapped while I'm still counting then the only choice is illegal participation.

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I like you creativeness and Clinton refference but notice my use of quotes? That's what was said. The naration is naration.

I do see quotes in the OP, but not around the 'idiot' tid bid. Nor do I think its very nice to mock JugglingReferee--an honest member of this fraternity (and, unlike me, he is smart enought not to get down into this silly "contest").

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I agree with your post. My only comment would be Officials have some obligation to communicate with coaches.

The only time we are obligated to talk to you is the Referee and wing official on your side when you call a timeout and request a conference. Other than that it is not our job (you will not find it in the rulebook BTW) where does it says we have to talk to you? And if other things are going on, they may not have time to talk to you. Answering questions from you takes away from other responsibilities.

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

It goes to the birth of football (when there were no “officials”) First captains then coaches then “officials” refereed the game. Everyone is in it together. Having been all three the attitudes I’m seeing here are scary and contrary to the spirit of the game.

I do not even know what your point is here. If I recall this was not a high school game, this was a youth or recreational type of game. I do not understand all this hostility over a call where everyone is supposed to learn.

Peace

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by Patton

PENALTY: Illegal participation (Art. 4b-f [live-ball, previous spot]) - (S28) - 15 yards

I think we covered that. Prudent questions would be if a clear cut illegal substitution occurs and is noticed by officials do they have any justification in ignoring it, then proceeding to call a similar foul with a higher penalty? If so, is this ethical?

The answer to the second question is without a doubt NO. Since it’s not ethical I tend to think the answer to the first question is no as well.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The only time we are obligated to talk to you is the Referee and wing official on your side when you call a timeout and request a conference. Other than that it is not our job (you will not find it in the rulebook BTW) where does it says we have to talk to you? And if other things are going on, they may not have time to talk to you. Answering questions from you takes away from other responsibilities.



I do not even know what your point is here. If I recall this was not a high school game, this was a youth or recreational type of game. I do not understand all this hostility over a call where everyone is supposed to learn.

Peace

I agree. Obligation by rule is what your talking about. That courtesy you were talking about is done for a reason. That’s what I was talking about.