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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 30, 2007, 08:15am
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Illegal Substitution or Nothing?

NFHS Rules
We had this question come up the other night.

Between downs, there are 11 players in huddle while QB (A11) is over by sideline getting play from coach. QB heads toward the huddle, and A23 heads for the sidelines, we don't ever get 12 in the huddle.

We were discussing this, and some of the issues that came up included
  • can you consider QB as a replaced player?
  • if QB is "replaced player", then he can't re-enter during same dead ball period
  • seems we did have 12 "players" on the field, not just substitues and replaced players
  • we know A23 can't be the one to come on the field between downs as a substitute, and then leave right away, because same reason as above A24 could have been the 12th coming onto the field.
  • this didn't seem to affect the defense or confuse them, so there didn't appear to be any deception, or if it was intended to deceive, it sure didn't work
does anyone have any thoughts on this, is this one of those that by the letter of the law we have a problem, but when one considers reality and practice it's better to leave the sleeping dog lie?

This just seems to leave a funny taste in the mouth.
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Old Sun Sep 30, 2007, 08:36am
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This is one of those situations that technically is illegal but I would "never" throw a flag. Since the intent is never to have the QB be a replaced player the 11th player in the huddle constitutes 12 players on the field.

I would let this go once and have a word with the coach. Only if the team persists would "never" end.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 30, 2007, 09:27am
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To me this is a legal play as a player leaves the huddle before the qb comes back. There is never 12 in the huddle and the defense can clearly see this. What rule says this is illegal.
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Old Sun Sep 30, 2007, 11:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfdesigner
NFHS Rules
We had this question come up the other night. Between downs, there are 11 players in huddle while QB (A11) is over by sideline getting play from coach. QB heads toward the huddle, and A23 heads for the sidelines, we don't ever get 12 in the huddle.
The "12 in the huddle" myth has no bearing on illegal substitution. To know if there is a "technical illegal substitution", we have to know how the 12th player got on the field & how long did the substitute remain on the field until he left??

BUT it probably makes sense to ==>>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Hickland
This is one of those situations that technically is illegal but I would "never" throw a flag. I would let this go once and have a word with the coach. Only if the team persists would "never" end.
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Old Sun Sep 30, 2007, 07:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy1033
To me this is a legal play as a player leaves the huddle before the qb comes back. There is never 12 in the huddle and the defense can clearly see this. What rule says this is illegal.
3-7-1, the replaced player must leave the field immediately. Supported by Casebook 3.7.1 Sit. A.
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Old Mon Oct 01, 2007, 10:03am
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REPLY: Just some thoughts...

Assuming that the QB was in for the prior play and just went over to talk to the sideline between plays, how did the huddle come to have 11 people--without him there?? Were there 12 on the prior play? Or, did someone report in without your seeing him?

Unless someone told the QB he was being replaced, there's no reason for you to consider him a "replaced player."
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Old Tue Oct 02, 2007, 12:31pm
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This is probably a flag. The QB didn't leave the field, so he's not a replaced player.

ASSUMING that you didn't have 12 players on the previous play, a substitute had to come from the sideline. If you have 11 in the huddle for any length of time (3-5 seconds), that means a replaced player did not leave. And that makes it a foul.

Whether you had 12 or 29 in the huddle, it makes not difference. The only thing you look at is did the replaced player fail to leave.
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Old Tue Oct 02, 2007, 01:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy1033
To me this is a legal play as a player leaves the huddle before the qb comes back. There is never 12 in the huddle and the defense can clearly see this. What rule says this is illegal.
Fed has no 12-in-the-huddle rule, but they have a 12 on the field rule. Sounds like this is technically illegal, but I'd also not flag it unless it got deceptive and/or the coach did it repeatedly after being told to stop.
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Old Tue Oct 02, 2007, 02:09pm
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You could have 11 in the huddle and the qb on the sideline. The subsitute going into the huddle could be a sub for 1 of two players in the game based on the next played called and how the players are feeling. the replaced player does not need to tell which player he is replacing right away. as long as the replaced player leaves before the qb comes back into the huddle there is no foul.
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Old Tue Oct 02, 2007, 02:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy1033
You could have 11 in the huddle and the qb on the sideline. The subsitute going into the huddle could be a sub for 1 of two players in the game based on the next played called and how the players are feeling. the replaced player does not need to tell which player he is replacing right away. as long as the replaced player leaves before the qb comes back into the huddle there is no foul.
You have a creative way of making your Calvinball rules sound like real rules. Check out the rulebook though - it's quite informative. In this particular case, Fed rules simply state that if a substitute comes in, and the person he's replacing doesn't leave "immediately", you have a substitution infraction. "Immediately". Not "Before the QB comes back to the huddle".
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Old Tue Oct 02, 2007, 03:02pm
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you are right that when he is notified that he is a replaced player he has to leave immed. But he is not a replaced player until 2.32.12 he is notified by the sub that he is replaced. I said in my note that he did not know yet who he was replacing.

I think common sense should prevail.

Last edited by andy1033; Tue Oct 02, 2007 at 03:09pm.
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Old Tue Oct 02, 2007, 03:10pm
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Why look for reasons to throw a flag for an inconsequential occurrence? As we are constantly reminded around here...
"Is this the flag you want on film for all to see and your reputation as an official to be made?"
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 03, 2007, 08:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L
Why look for reasons to throw a flag for an inconsequential occurrence?
MikeL, What a great one-liner. I'm going to use that often...
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Old Wed Oct 03, 2007, 02:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wisref2
....Whether you had 12 or 29 in the huddle, it makes not difference....
I don't want to see more than 22 in the huddle. Otherwise some team members came out and left. That is illegal in itself.
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