Quote:
Originally posted by jumpmaster
Jeff, this is a correct statement and I (and WCB) will happily concede this. However, there are circumstance when we as officials are overruled. Earlier in this thread I cited a personal experience a call that was overruled by my white hat. I flagged the quarterback for IG. The white hat waved my flag off because, in HIS judgement, it was not IG. I was out of position and not covering my area. 2 mistakes on my part that resulted in my flag being waved off.
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The White hat is the only person in a 5 man crew or 6 or 7 that has IG calls. You cannot call IG calls from any position. I would not call that being "overruled" I would call that the officials that has the call is not allowing you to make that call. On all penalties in football, the plays can be discussed and if information is given, you might pick up the flag. But that is not overruling another partner, that is discussing the situation and coming to a conclusion. A great example of this would be on a DPI call, when the ball is tipped at the LOS and the Umpire and the Referee see the ball touched. Then the Back Judge is not aware of the tip and calls DPI incorrectly and throws the flag. Then when the BJ comes to the Referee and tells him what he has. The Umpire and Referee ask him "did you see the tipped pass?" The Back Judge might say, “no I did not, I will pick up the flag." The BJ in that situation did not have his call changed by us; he decided to change his own call. Because as a WH and Umpire, we do cannot always determine when the contact occurred that the BJ saw, he has to make the right decision himself. As a crew we might help him and a good official will take that information to heart and change his call, but we do not change that call.
Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Experience has taught me that when you start making statements such as "...no one uses that language..." you are either ignorant of the situation or working within a very small pool of people. Funny thing, I know of 3 NCAA officials who believe that you are off base and attempting to apply absolutes to a very fluid situation, seems like poor judgement (based on your credentials) or a lack of experience.
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I belong to the Central Officials Association in Chicago. In the COA we have about 15 Big Ten Officials, currently on the Big Ten Staff. Three Big Ten Crew Chiefs are COA members, Steve Pamon, Jim Lepetina, and Bill LeMonnier. We have of the Technical Advisors for the Big Ten, that will be apart of the "Instant Replay" activities, Tom Quinn and Jim Keogh, both former long time Big Ten Officials. The official that made the famous TD call in the Michigan State-Notre Dame with Charles Rogers was Jack Lyman as Back Judge. We have 3 current NFL officials in our group, Michael Banks, Rich Reels and Tony Michalek. I have for the past 5 years heard these individuals speech every year at regular meetings and clinics and have never heard them talk about "overruling" and that being an acceptable practice. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. I have never heard the many other officials that I did not mention in the Big Ten or that work the D3 and JUCO conferences in our area use that language their presentations. I work with a crew that has worked 2 State Finals in Illinois, they do not use that language or that practice in the games I work with them. I have been on 2 varsity crews in my career, I have never had anyone on those crews use that language. I have filled in with many other crews with IHSA Clinicians and many playoff officials; they do not use that language. The playoff crew I worked with during my first playoff game, we did not use that language. My IACAO Presentation talked about situations to help each other and work together, I did not use that language and anyone that was asked to participate in my presentation, did not use that language.
Quote:
Originally posted by jumpmaster
I will offer this point - as the skill level of the official increases, fewer of these overule/change types of situations occur.
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I will tell this story to sum this all up.
I had a varsity game about 2 years ago. This was my first full year as Referee. We happen to have CBS Channel 2 Chicago was at this game. CLTV showed highlights of this game and play I will describe.
The QB rolls out to the right and makes a pass. I have coverage of the QB and only see his release. The QB throws a pass in the end zone, I hear the crowd and see both my Back Judge signal TD and Line Judge signals incomplete pass. I run to their discussion and all I say, “what do you guys have." I do not tell them what to do; we just needed to clarify what our ruling was. The LJ backs off, mainly because the BJ had a better look at the play and tells me we have a touchdown. I signal TD to the press box. The CBS TV truck was sitting near that end zone and they had a camera that had a great look at the play. My Linesman did not see the play. My Umpire was not sure or could not rule on the play. Of course I was watching the QB to make sure he was not hit illegally, so I had no idea of what happen on the play. My Linesman and Umpire were asked by a technician from CBS to look at the play as we were going locker room. The play was clearly an incomplete pass. An offensive and defensive player both go after the ball but no possession was gained by either. My Back Judge (no longer on my crew) ruled they had dual possession. The only person that could have changed his mind was the LJ and he had doubt himself. When they discussed the play on the field, we had to go with what they decided. It was a TD that was clearly the wrong call. None of the other officials could do anything but accept their call. If the TV cameras were not there, I still would have no idea what actually took place on this play. So how could we "overrule" their call? It was wrong, but we had to live with it. We do not have instant replay; we would not have had the benefit of other officials on the field to change the call. We had to live with their call. All I could do as a WH is have them make a clear decision.
Tell me what we should have done differently? What could we have done? What could I have done?
I really would like to know?
Peace