Questioning Partner's Call

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by Adam

My assumption is based on experience. Our response as partners can lead to a lot of trouble. If a caoch is already on edge about a call, and you start walking towards the calling official, he's going to assume you saw it his way and try to encourgage you to overturn the call or "talk to" your partner.

Talking to my partner should not mean that he suddenly loses credibility from it though. He's a human being first and he and me and everyone here will inevitably make mistakes. And I said before, I hope I have a strong enough partner who will be willing to catch my mistakes as I personally do not want a mistake of mine leave an adverse impact on the game.

Originally Posted by Adam

I have to say, from what I've read, you seem to have been pretty focussed on the division line when you were at the lead position. I just can't imagine even looking up there on that play unless I didn't trust my partner at all.

Why are you so concerned with this play anyways? Regardless of what happened, if it's a controversial call that may have been due to a kicked rule, that doubt should be addressed. That is my opinion, though if you have a differing opinion, I'll be willing to hear it, I just won't necessarily agree with it though.

Originally Posted by Adam

I don't recall the play you're talking about with Izzo.

AremRed posted a video of a similar play in the last page where officials were conferring with one another which I said was similar in how the play happened in my game.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

My problem? That you whine so much about "personal attacks" yet have no problem making partonizing a$$ comments like this:



What kind of pompous official thinks other officials don't know how AAU basketball works?

Because you think a bad call in one game isn't as severe as a bad call in another game. Which to me is an insensitive comment to the hard working parents who pay their hard earned money to then invest time during the week practicing to play the games on the weekends. Kids and families plan their lives around these games, and dismissing these games the way you did is a mark of unprofessionalism.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Because you think a bad call in one game isn't as severe as a bad call in another game. Which to me is an insensitive comment to the hard working parents who pay their hard earned money to then invest time during the week practicing to play the games on the weekends. Kids and families plan their lives around these games, and dismissing these games the way you did is a mark of unprofessionalism.

Making excuses about why you don't have pre-games before each of these games is a sign of what? Those games aren't as important or they (and you) would pay officials as much as the more important games. They play in a new tournament every weekend. It is "off-season" basketball. And the fact that you put people that you don't trust on the games shows that you don't think very much of the games yourself.

And still, that has nothing to do with the fact that you said, without knowing me, that I don't know how AAU works. You made a personal assessment of me, yet 1/2 your posts here complain about people making it "personal" towards you.

[The_Rookie]

[QUOTE=Afrosheen;

I'm glad that there was a video here shown where an Div 1 NCAA ref goes up to his partner and makes him reconsider the backcourt violation. He showed how calmly he approached his partner and allowed him to make the final call.

Evidently, the people here think to do that is disrespectful. I appreciate that you told me this, but I disagree with it. And it seems that I have ruffled your feathers by saying that I disagree with you, which really isn't a surprise to me.[/QUOTE]

Mistakes are made at all levels...and I don't think anyone here is advocating not communicating effectively..key word effectively..which means that TIME and PLACE do matter in communications.

Further, there are some really great minds with tons and tons of experience on this blog who are generous with sharing their knowledge and experience. You may not agree with it all and yes some comments include tuff love but realize that its not personal and the goal behind the comments is to be helpful.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You: What did you see on that back court play?

Partner: I saw a player in the control in the FC by the player having possession of the ball.

This is a far as I would have gone, with the addition of:

You: Nice call.

He didn't kick a rule, he made a judgment call and he was the primary and closer to the play than me, so that's all I'm saying to him on this particular play. Now, if he kicked the rule by confusing a throwin exception, for example, then I might spend a few more seconds discussing the play with him.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Talking to my partner should not mean that he suddenly loses credibility from it though. He's a human being first and he and me and everyone here will inevitably make mistakes. And I said before, I hope I have a strong enough partner who will be willing to catch my mistakes as I personally do not want a mistake of mine leave an adverse impact on the game.

Maybe it shouldn't, but it tends to; especially with AAU coaches. Everyone knows we make mistakes, that's not in dispute; nor is it relevant.

I hope to have a strong enough partner that I can focus on my area without worrying about his. Honestly, I would have never even seen the play in your OP. Not from the end line. If I'm at the point where I don't trust him on BC violations from the lead position, I'm probably just trying to prevent a brawl.

And honestly, it's not the "talking" that decreases your partner's credibility. It's your body language that makes it exceedingly clear to the coach that you disagreed with the call.

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Why are you so concerned with this play anyways? Regardless of what happened, if it's a controversial call that may have been due to a kicked rule, that doubt should be addressed. That is my opinion, though if you have a differing opinion, I'll be willing to hear it, I just won't necessarily agree with it though.

Because the details of the play matter when it comes to how or whether I would have approached my partner. Like I've said, there are times I have approached a partner to discuss a BC call (once in my very first varsity game), but none of them involved a play that took place entirely in my partner's PCA (this isn't even the lead's secondary area) within such close proximity to the division line.

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

AremRed posted a video of a similar play in the last page where officials were conferring with one another which I said was similar in how the play happened in my game.

Ah, I recall the play now. I'll say this; I would never do this. There are a couple of major differences, IMO.

1. The way NCAA officials respond to Izzo is vastly different than the way I would recommend officials respond to AAU coaches.
2. The official who approached his partner seems to have simply asked for an explanation of the call and offered the correct rule.
3. The questioning official has built up a lifetime of situations from which he can draw to know both how to approach his partner and how to deal with the coach afterwards.
4. Don't think the calling official's credibility wasn't damaged by this sequence. Now, whether it was worth the damage is up for debate, and is likely contingent on a number of factors. Personally, I think the ramifications of that damage would be much more significant in an AAU setting than in a college setting where proscribed recourse is already in place to maintain control and bench decorum.
5. That damage is mitigated largely by the fact that he's working this level to begin with. AAU officials don't have that built in cushion.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This is a far as I would have gone, with the addition of:

You: Nice call.

He didn't kick a rule, he made a judgment call and he was the primary and closer to the play than me, so that's all I'm saying to him on this particular play. Now, if he kicked the rule by confusing a throwin exception, for example, then I might spend a few more seconds discussing the play with him.

I would have a much more detailed conversation in the locker room about a play that a coach brought to my attention. And I did not get the opportunity during the time on the floor. So saying "Nice call" does not get to the point of us learning or teaching from the situation, especially when you are dealing with a younger official. Even if I had a tough call I would ask my partners if they saw something I missed or they had a different angle.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... learning or teaching from the situation ... saw something I missed ... had a different angle.

He makes it quite clear what he saw.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Partner: I saw a player in the control in the FC by the player having possession of the ball.

I think that it's got all the requirements of a backcourt violation. Two important things can get screwed up with this situation. Knowing the exception for the throwin, and knowing when player control takes place in the front court. He got them both right, using the proper "rule" language. Why discuss it further? Play on.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

I hope to have a strong enough partner that I can focus on my area without worrying about his. Honestly, I would have never even seen the play in your OP. Not from the end line.

...but none of them involved a play that took place entirely in my partner's PCA (this isn't even the lead's secondary area) within such close proximity to the division line.

Perhaps I've made a bad assumption on this play but I was commenting on this play assuming the throwin was administered by the OP from one of his lines and it was 100% his responsibility to watch the ball on the throwin so he could chop in the time. That would mean that he would have to be looking right at the play.

If that is not the case, then I do agree he really shouldn't be looking that far out of his primary and, if he was really doing his job, he would have never seen the play to even have an opinion on the play.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

He makes it quite clear what he saw.



I think that it's got all the requirements of a backcourt violation. Two important things can get screwed up with this situation. Knowing the exception for the throwin, and knowing when player control takes place in the front court. He got them both right, using the proper "rule" language. Why discuss it further? Play on.

I am really not talking about just discussions of this specific play. If you were paying attention I said that if there was a real question that would be a conversation in the locker room either at halftime or after the game (maybe at the bar), but not on the floor. Partners I work with typically embrace speaking about plays and situations we dealt with in the game. And often asking about situations we did not see or did not have direct knowledge of as it was not in our primary or something a coach commented to us about. Almost never a big deal and almost never anyone gets upset by these discussions. Again, this is how we get better or know what actually happen.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you were paying attention I said that if there was a real question that would be a conversation in the locker room either at halftime or after the game ...

...

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... bring it up at halftime, or after the game ...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Perhaps I've made a bad assumption on this play but I was commenting on this play assuming the throwin was administered by the OP from one of his lines and it was 100% his responsibility to watch the ball on the throwin so he could chop in the time. ....

I able to do that without looking to see where the receivers feet are, and without staring directly at him.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by referee99

Afro,
Did you address this in pregame?
As a crew, let's not kick a rule. If you think I am about to kick, come get me and let's make sure...
etc...

To this particular partner, no… he showed up late, as when he arrived I was taking the few minutes before the game to check roster pictures from both teams.

But I do emphasize to my partners during high school games to stop the game and discuss any opportunity to correct an error I made. I try to be as open to my partner as I can by giving him full reign over the game as long as we are able to communicate verbally and non-verbally throughout the game.

[RookieDude]

Afrosheen...

I'm really late to this conversation, but I did read most of the posts.

I appreciate your enthusiasm about getting a call correct...you know, for the integrity of the game etc.

Let me share a little story, that kind of goes along these lines.

Some years back, during the old two whistle days here in WA. state, I was doing an evaluated game at the "B" State Tournament. I was new L as the ball was coming from the backcourt to "my" frontcourt. The T was trailing the play around midcourt. I was already at the endline. I was "looking throug the players" (ball watching) as I saw a crash around midcourt. The player that was dribbling had been fouled. My partner did not have a call...for whatever reason. I thought I would "save the crew" and make the call.

After the tournament...I read my evaluations. The evaluator said, "that while your call was correct, it is not your call, let your partner live and die with it." (I got to watch the championship game from the table as the Alternate Official) Who knows?

Anyway, this situation isn't exactly like yours...in that you were questioning a possible RULE error...while I was questioning JUDGEMENT.

I guess my point is...with many situations and experiences of approaching my partner...I have a general philosophy ...If I am going to ERROR...I am going to ERROR on the side of LET IT GO, TALK ABOUT IT LATER.

SIDENOTE: A lot depends on game situation, level of play, how far away I am from the play, how sure I am that my partner kicked a call, does my partner really need the help, etc.

Again, it sounds like you really do care about this officiating gig...that's cool.

[Afrosheen]

Thank you RookieDude. No worries on the late post, I've subscribed to the topic and I'll read what comes to my inbox. Replying to it though depends on the quality of the post.

And I can relate to your point as I had an evaluation myself where I had a crash but I was the trail in a transition play and I made a call that was in my partner's area. The evaluators recommended the same thing as they wanted to see the other ref be more willing to make the call.

The central reason why I created this thread is to glean from others how they've determined the balance between trusting their partner and essentially living and dying with his call and maintaining the integrity of the game. To me these two things are at the opposite ends of a spectrum and making that choice is fuzzy rather than as black and white as some people make it out to be. And I see you got what I was intending with my post by sharing. So thank you for that.