Airborne Shooter purposely drops ball

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Then apply the rules as they are written, not as you invent new words to put in so it will fit what you want it to be. Quit looking for ways to weasel out of blowing the whistle.

A dribble starts when it leaves the hands. There is no part of the definition that suggests otherwise. A pass also starts when it leaves the hands. The difference is only in the judgement in whether it is going to the floor or to another player.

My example was merely offered to expose the fallacy in the points being made about the play in question.

That's not what it says. It says it starts when it's thrown or pushed to the floor. Dropping is neither throwing nor pushing. If we're going to start parsing definitions, I think we need to start there.

[bob jenkins]

4.43.3A and B are plays similar to the one being discussed here. In both, the play description includes A1 touching the ball.

That's not definitive of course (as it would be if the ruling said "violation once A1 touches the ball" or "violation immediately upon dropping the ball"). Still, absent any specifics, it's enough for me to judge that if I'm the calling official, I'm waiting until it's touched.

And, if you are watching the play out of your area, and come to me because you think I might have kicked a rules issue, I'm going to send you a nasty email citing the need not to interfere in another official's jurisdiction. Sorry. Wrong thread.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

That's not what it says. It says it starts when it's thrown or pushed to the floor. Dropping is neither throwing nor pushing. If we're going to start parsing definitions, I think we need to start there.

What exactly is pushing then? Exactly how much force is required for it to be a push.


When the ball leaves a players hands under their control, it is only one of three things...a try, a pass, or a dribble and it is such the moment it leaves their hands. The differences is entirely in intent and judging which is what we get paid for. Some will bring up the point about not judging intent but that doesn't really work because you have to judge intent when it comes to a try when determining if it is a shooting foul or whether they payer can retrieve an air ball. If you can determine that, it really isn't a stretch to expect an official to be able to tell if it is a dribble or a pass based on how it is released.

If it is remotely to another player, I'm OK with calling it a pass. But when it is clearly not to another player when it leaves the hands, and the player only put the ball on the floor with no teammate anywhere near to avoid getting it blocked, that defender that forced the action deserves violation call.

[potato]

does it matter if it's a pass or dribble unless the player just caught the ball while in the air (from a pass or rebound), since you can't catch your own pass and you can't dribble if you got the ball before jumping.

if it was an alleyoop or rebound he probably can do start a dribble.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What exactly is pushing then? Exactly how much force is required for it to be a push.


When the ball leaves a players hands under their control, it is only one of three things...a try, a pass, or a dribble and it is such the moment it leaves their hands. The differences is entirely in intent and judging which is what we get paid for. Some will bring up the point about not judging intent but that doesn't really work because you have to judge intent when it comes to a try when determining if it is a shooting foul or whether they payer can retrieve an air ball. If you can determine that, it really isn't a stretch to expect an official to be able to tell if it is a dribble or a pass based on how it is released.

If it is remotely to another player, I'm OK with calling it a pass. But when it is clearly not to another player when it leaves the hands, and the player only put the ball on the floor with no teammate anywhere near to avoid getting it blocked, that defender that forced the action deserves violation call.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by potato

If it was an alleyoop or rebound he probably can do start a dribble.

Not if he's already lifted his pivot foot for a try, or a pass (which is what this thread is all about).

[potato]

Well since the initial post did not state what happened before the player dropped the ball, whether he ended a dribble & jumped or he received the ball while airborne, i just though i took it into consideration on a 2nd case where no pivot has yet been established.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not if he's already lifted his pivot foot for a try, or a pass (which is what this thread is all about).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by potato

Well since the initial post did not state what happened before the player dropped the ball, whether he ended a dribble & jumped or he received the ball while airborne, i just though i took it into consideration on a 2nd case where no pivot has yet been established.

If the player received a pass while airborne there would have been no reason for this discussion.

[potato]

well it could still be a violation if he touched his own pass. but if he dropped the ball & touches it would you see it as a violation or just treat it as a dribble?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by potato

does it matter if it's a pass or dribble unless the player just caught the ball while in the air (from a pass or rebound), since you can't catch your own pass and you can't dribble if you got the ball before jumping.

if it was an alleyoop or rebound he probably can do start a dribble.

I don't know what you are asking.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by potato

does it matter if it's a pass or dribble unless the player just caught the ball while in the air (from a pass or rebound), since you can't catch your own pass and you can't dribble if you got the ball before jumping.

What I think you're asking: "Why are you guys arguing about whether it's a pass or a dribble since either one is illegal?"

If that is correct, then you are right that once A1 touches the ball the play is illegal. But if it's (determined to be) a pass, then it's not illegal until it's touched by A1. If it's (determined to be) a dribble, then it *might* be illegal as soon as A1 begins the dribble. And, you *might* not be able to determine which it is until later (or maybe you can make such a determination). That's the focus of the discussion.

if it was an alleyoop or rebound he probably can do start a dribble.

No "probably" about it, and also not the play we are discussing.

[potato]

assuming the player established a pivot before he jumped, the player can't dribble anymore because he already lifted his pivot before releasing the ball so it'd be a travel right?

unless he merely came into contact with the ball while on the floor & yet catch/secure the ball and only manage to do it while already airborne, this case he hasn't established a pivot until he has landed, so he can actually just hold the ball until he land or "drop" the ball as a mean to start a dribble.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If that is correct, then you are right that once A1 touches the ball the play is illegal. But if it's (determined to be) a pass, then it's not illegal until it's touched by A1. If it's (determined to be) a dribble, then it *might* be illegal as soon as A1 begins the dribble. And, you *might* not be able to determine which it is until later (or maybe you can make such a determination). That's the focus of the discussion.