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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 23, 2013, 09:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potato View Post
Isn't there a rule that states a player cannot be the 1st to touch his own airball even if it is a shooting attempt? Was it NBA?
It's the NBA, and only the NBA.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 23, 2013, 11:08pm
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Okay, we made this into a word game, which was not beneficial to the discussion. I think this is all about intent at the time of the release, just as it is when the player is fouled. A1 dropped the ball because he knew he couldn't return to the floor with it. It wasn't a try. It wasn't a fumble. And unless there is a teammate right next to him to pick it up, I can't call it a pass. By default, it is a dribble.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2013, 06:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
... intent ... A1 dropped the ball because he knew he couldn't return to the floor with it.
Are you guessing, or did you ask him? Or, did you read his mind?
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2013, 07:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Okay, we made this into a word game, which was not beneficial to the discussion. I think this is all about intent at the time of the release, just as it is when the player is fouled. A1 dropped the ball because he knew he couldn't return to the floor with it. It wasn't a try. It wasn't a fumble. And unless there is a teammate right next to him to pick it up, I can't call it a pass. By default, it is a dribble.
I think it's something that can't yet be determined, as opposed to defaulting to "it must be a dribble".
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2013, 02:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
You argue like this is political debate... read words, interpret them the way you want, then argue with that interpretation even if you know your interpretation is not what the other person meant.

That sort of argument is a waste of everyone's time and effort. This is not politics, this is not a debate. It's an officiating discussion board, where we're all trying to get better.
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I did not say dropping the ball and catching it is not a dribble. I said "this" - the situation we're talking about (well, the situation we WERE talking about until you decided to insert a completely different scenario in its place and apply my statement to it). In the situation we're talking about, dropping the ball and not picking it up is not a dribble. You tried to imply that it was because Gravity is a Force, and you saw the word force in the rule. (Frankly ... another example of what you did to my post)

If you're simply here to out-debate us or win an argument, I'm not interested. If you're interested in discussing what rules apply here, please do so.

Then apply the rules as they are written, not as you invent new words to put in so it will fit what you want it to be. Quit looking for ways to weasel out of blowing the whistle.

A dribble starts when it leaves the hands. There is no part of the definition that suggests otherwise. A pass also starts when it leaves the hands. The difference is only in the judgement in whether it is going to the floor or to another player.

My example was merely offered to expose the fallacy in the points being made about the play in question.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 02:53pm.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2013, 03:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Then apply the rules as they are written, not as you invent new words to put in so it will fit what you want it to be. Quit looking for ways to weasel out of blowing the whistle.

A dribble starts when it leaves the hands. There is no part of the definition that suggests otherwise. A pass also starts when it leaves the hands. The difference is only in the judgement in whether it is going to the floor or to another player.

My example was merely offered to expose the fallacy in the points being made about the play in question.
That's not what it says. It says it starts when it's thrown or pushed to the floor. Dropping is neither throwing nor pushing. If we're going to start parsing definitions, I think we need to start there.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2013, 03:23pm
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4.43.3A and B are plays similar to the one being discussed here. In both, the play description includes A1 touching the ball.

That's not definitive of course (as it would be if the ruling said "violation once A1 touches the ball" or "violation immediately upon dropping the ball"). Still, absent any specifics, it's enough for me to judge that if I'm the calling official, I'm waiting until it's touched.

And, if you are watching the play out of your area, and come to me because you think I might have kicked a rules issue, I'm going to send you a nasty email citing the need not to interfere in another official's jurisdiction. Sorry. Wrong thread.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2013, 03:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Okay, we made this into a word game, which was not beneficial to the discussion. I think this is all about intent at the time of the release, just as it is when the player is fouled. A1 dropped the ball because he knew he couldn't return to the floor with it. It wasn't a try. It wasn't a fumble. And unless there is a teammate right next to him to pick it up, I can't call it a pass. By default, it is a dribble.
By definition, though, it's not. At this moment in time, it's none of the above. Until we see who touches it next, it's status is not yet known, and thus this is not yet a violation.
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Old Thu Oct 24, 2013, 03:42pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
That's not what it says. It says it starts when it's thrown or pushed to the floor. Dropping is neither throwing nor pushing. If we're going to start parsing definitions, I think we need to start there.
What exactly is pushing then? Exactly how much force is required for it to be a push.


When the ball leaves a players hands under their control, it is only one of three things...a try, a pass, or a dribble and it is such the moment it leaves their hands. The differences is entirely in intent and judging which is what we get paid for. Some will bring up the point about not judging intent but that doesn't really work because you have to judge intent when it comes to a try when determining if it is a shooting foul or whether they payer can retrieve an air ball. If you can determine that, it really isn't a stretch to expect an official to be able to tell if it is a dribble or a pass based on how it is released.

If it is remotely to another player, I'm OK with calling it a pass. But when it is clearly not to another player when it leaves the hands, and the player only put the ball on the floor with no teammate anywhere near to avoid getting it blocked, that defender that forced the action deserves violation call.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2013, 03:44pm
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
By definition, though, it's not. At this moment in time, it's none of the above. Until we see who touches it next, it's status is not yet known, and thus this is not yet a violation.
That is where you're wrong. It is one of the above whether you're able to tell or not. I can usually tell. If not, I wait for more information to be sure.
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Old Thu Oct 24, 2013, 04:23pm
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Third Choice ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The difference is only in the judgement in whether it is going to the floor or to another player.
A bounce pass does both.
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Old Thu Oct 24, 2013, 04:27pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
A bounce pass does both.
But in a different direction. I've never seen a bounce pass that goes straight down or even nearly straight down.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2013, 04:40pm
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Do I Use The Tangent, Or The Cosine ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
But in a different direction. I've never seen a bounce pass that goes straight down or even nearly straight down.
You're probably right. Let me whip out my protractor.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2013, 01:29am
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does it matter if it's a pass or dribble unless the player just caught the ball while in the air (from a pass or rebound), since you can't catch your own pass and you can't dribble if you got the ball before jumping.

if it was an alleyoop or rebound he probably can do start a dribble.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
What exactly is pushing then? Exactly how much force is required for it to be a push.


When the ball leaves a players hands under their control, it is only one of three things...a try, a pass, or a dribble and it is such the moment it leaves their hands. The differences is entirely in intent and judging which is what we get paid for. Some will bring up the point about not judging intent but that doesn't really work because you have to judge intent when it comes to a try when determining if it is a shooting foul or whether they payer can retrieve an air ball. If you can determine that, it really isn't a stretch to expect an official to be able to tell if it is a dribble or a pass based on how it is released.

If it is remotely to another player, I'm OK with calling it a pass. But when it is clearly not to another player when it leaves the hands, and the player only put the ball on the floor with no teammate anywhere near to avoid getting it blocked, that defender that forced the action deserves violation call.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:31am
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Probably ??? Not ...

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Originally Posted by potato View Post
If it was an alleyoop or rebound he probably can do start a dribble.
Not if he's already lifted his pivot foot for a try, or a pass (which is what this thread is all about).
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Oct 25, 2013 at 05:36am.
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