The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 17, 2003, 07:40pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,476
Question

Had mediocre (play was sloppy) game last night with a partner that I hadn't worked with in at least two years. Partner has 27 years of experience versus my 12.

He was the Ref and did NO PREGAME WITH ME. I forced the issue and discussed a few things about the idosyncracies of the court - double lines along the court edges black line, 1 inch gap and then 24" wide color stripe; several lines at the mid court division lines; strap above the basket. We also discussed a little about last minute shoots and alignment with the clock. That was it. Our coverage was not bad but it never felt comfortable. We called a little bit different style of game and perhaps that was what made it feel uncomfortable.

One of those differences was held ball on an airborne shooter. I had learned, and thought I understood the rule, that if the shooter goes up and the defender gets a hand on the ball such that the shooter comes back down with both of them still holding the ball - held ball. No problem. I also learned that if the ball came free before the shooter returned to the floor - NO HELD BALL. My partner called it twice the other way - the shooter was at his peak height, the ball comes out so no one has a hand on it, it falls to the floor and he calls held ball. He made the same call two different times.

No one says anything about his call. I made the unwise decision of asking him about it during the third quarter. He was adamant that two player's hands on the ball was always a jump - independent of the undue roughness issue, independent of airborne status of the shooter. I remember saying something along the lines of "the reason you call a held ball is so the shooter doesn't return to the floor having traveled. But if the ball comes free, you've got nothing but good defense and play continues." He didn't like that and wouldn't let it alone. He called me aside twice during the remainder of the game (not during held ball situations - just to continue the "discussion") and wanted to straighten me out. At the conclusion of the game, he really wanted to straighten me out to the point of arguing in front of the home administator.

I finally stated louder than my normal voice but still quieter than his " I got it. I've heard you - again and again. Would you listen to me?" His response was "Don't tell me to shut up!" and "You're not gonna tell me how to call a game until you out rank me. Until you rate higher than I do, you're not gonna tell me how to call anything."

A simple questioning attitude had turned into my evening's nightmare.

We didn't say a word to each other for at least 5 minutes (Now, I've got about an hour long ride home with him).

We got into the car and I appologised profusely. " I did not intend this to be a one-upmanship deal. I wasn't trying to tell you that you were wrong. I just learned the rule differently than you were calling it. The rule book doesn't even seem to support my position." The ride home was okay but no more comfortable than the game.

Okay, enough of my frightmare. What the heck is the rule and how should it be called?

Rule 4-25-2 says "An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try."

CB play 4.25.2 says "A1 jumps to try for a goal... B1... puts his/her hand on the ball and keep(s) A1 from releasing it. A1 .... is unable to control the ball and it drops to the floor. Ruling: A held ball results immediately ... when airborne A1 is prevented from releasing the ball to pass or try for goal.

I thought I understood this quite well. Maybe it was just because I was lambasted by my partner but these two don't even seem to support my understanding.

Believe me I'm not going to go back and report to my partner. Just let me know how this play should be called. I don't have anymore games scheduled with him.

Releasing is a good word. It supports my position. However the casebook says "releasing... to pass or try."

I screwed up by even attempting to discuss it with him but did I screw up the rule?
__________________
"There are no superstar calls. We don't root for certain teams. We don't cheat. But sometimes we just miss calls." - Joe Crawford
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 17, 2003, 08:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,220
As I have understood this rule:
1. If the ball comes immediately out when the defense hits it, it was knocked away - play on, good defense.
2. If the defense forces the ball to stop its motion before release, but the offensive player is able to retain control and get a release on a try or pass - play on, good offense.
3. If the defense forces the ball to stop its motion or pushes it back the other way, and the ball later comes free (and you can see this distinctly), it was a held ball before it came loose.
4. If the defense forces the ball to stop its motion or pushes it back the other way, and the offensive player gets slick and decides to drop the ball right before landing (thinking he is avoiding a travel or a held ball), it's too late - held ball before it was dropped but bonus points for effort to the offense)

The difference between 1 and 3 is a matter of judgment, but there are clearly certain times where the defense knocks the ball out of a player's hands, and others where the defense gets the ball, but it only comes loose later.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 09:24am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,346
Hawks Coach, I think you are walking a fine line trying to distinguish between #2 and #3.
The casebook play clearly says to call a held ball IMMEDIATELY when the airborne offensive player is prevented from releasing the ball on a try or pass.
Now, I will concede that officials must walk the tightrope when judging whether the ball was blocked and then came free (play on) or was prevented from being released initially (call held ball here, by rule) and then came free later.
I don't know if the rule was the same ten years ago when I was in HS, but we lost a game by 2, when my teammate prevented the release of a shot by an airborne player up high, who then was able to make a fantastic play and release the ball from his hip before his feet returned to the floor and thus score the winning basket. I could care less about the game now, but just wonder what the rule said back then.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 09:50am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,220
I am not walking a fine line - a player is in the air and releases a ball under his own power on a shot or pass, it is a release. He was not prevented from releasing the ball, which is what the rule states.

As for the case book, I believe that both cases I cite as held balls are backed in the case book example.

HELD BALL
4.25.2 SITUATION: A1 jumps to try for goal or to pass the ball. B1 leaps or reaches and is able to put his/her hands on the ball and keep A1 from releasing it. A1: (a) returns to the floor with the ball; or (b) is unable to control the ball and it drops to the floor. Ruling: A held ball results immediately in (a) and (b) when airborne A1 is prevented from releasing the ball to pass or try for goal.

This goes back to the discussion of the original intent of this rule, which I believe was to prevent the up and down call on a situation where the defense prevents the release. Unfortunately, the rulebook and casebook are silent on the airborn player who has a release temporarily prevented byut who successfully releases the ball before returning to the floor.

My belief is this is a good offensive play which should be rewarded, and that allowing this play to continue to completion does not violate the spirit or intent of the rule.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 12:13pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 301
Hawks Coach,

I have to agree with Nevadaref on this one. In both cases #2 & 3 the offensive player won't have a chance to retain possession in my games because I have already blown the play dead for a held ball. This is such a bang bang play that if you wait to see if the ball is being pushed backwards it may be too late to make the call. I make the call as soon as the defender has stopped the forward motion of the ball. I also agree with you that the rule was put in to prevent a traveling call in this situation. That is why an official needs to call the held ball as soon as the shooter can't continue the forward motion of the ball due to the defender getting their hand on the ball.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 12:37pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,221
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I am not walking a fine line - a player is in the air and releases a ball under his own power on a shot or pass, it is a release. He was not prevented from releasing the ball, which is what the rule states.

HELD BALL
4.25.2 SITUATION: A1 jumps to try for goal or to pass the ball. B1 leaps or reaches and is able to put his/her hands on the ball and keep A1 from releasing it. A1: (a) returns to the floor with the ball; or (b) is unable to control the ball and it drops to the floor. Ruling: A held ball results immediately in (a) and (b) when airborne A1 is prevented from releasing the ball to pass or try for goal.

This goes back to the discussion of the original intent of this rule, which I believe was to prevent the up and down call on a situation where the defense prevents the release. Unfortunately, the rulebook and casebook are silent on the airborn player who has a release temporarily prevented byut who successfully releases the ball before returning to the floor.

My belief is this is a good offensive play which should be rewarded, and that allowing this play to continue to completion does not violate the spirit or intent of the rule.
I agree with Da Coach. I also agree with his reasoning.Let the play finish,see what ya got,and then make your call(or no call).
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 01:03pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,221
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
I don't know if the rule was the same ten years ago when I was in HS, but we lost a game by 2, when my teammate prevented the release of a shot by an airborne player up high, who then was able to make a fantastic play and release the ball from his hip before his feet returned to the floor and thus score the winning basket. I could care less about the game now, but just wonder what the rule said back then.
The rule has basically been the same for as long as I can remember,Nevada.In the play above,the bottom line is your teammate did NOT prevent the release of a shot-so it couldn't have been a jump ball.The shooter made a good play,and the ref was right to hold up on his whistle to see IF the shooter could make that play.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 04:16pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,476
Thumbs up THANK YOU

It sounds like I need to be a little quicker to call the held ball for an airborne shooter....

The Casebook uses the words "unable to control the ball and it drops to the floor... => HELD BALL"

So perhaps my rule of thumb should be - unless the results is:[list=A][*]a clearly blocked ball that is immediately knocked from the shooters hands or[*]the shooter is able to maintain control (not loose the ball) to the point of pulling it away from the defender's hand and still release it on a try or pass[/list=A]

I should be calling held ball.

I clearly agree with Hawk's #1, & 4 and see plainly that there is much judgement/latitude in #2, & 3.

My current inclination is that if the shooter is still continuing in his upward motion, he has opportunity to maintain control and recover such that a pass or try could be made ==> hold my whistle. If however, the result is that an obvious try or pass cannot, or is not made (ball simply squirts out or falls to the ground), I should be calling a held ball.

Anyone see anything wrong with that line of reasoning?

__________________
"There are no superstar calls. We don't root for certain teams. We don't cheat. But sometimes we just miss calls." - Joe Crawford
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 18, 2003, 05:28pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 34
Rule casebook 4.25.2 has been quoted in this discussion. It clearly indicates that when the airborne player is prevented from relaesing the ball on a pass or try the call is a held ball.
Noe one has quoted casebook play 4.43.3. It has parts a-b-c-d. the final conclusion of all the play variations is that since touching did not prevent the pass or try, th ball remains alive. I am too laxy to type the whole thing so please consult it. this conclusion seems to make the play where the player was prevented from release at the top, but then shot from the hip, it is a legal play because the ball was able to be released.
I have had to read these two plays every year to refocus on the correct calls. this discussion has helped to clarify.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 19, 2003, 07:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,346
Hawks Coach and JR,
It seems that there is some problem in defining what it means to prevent the release of the ball.
If we take the play I said happened in my HS game as our example, the question becomes: When, if ever, did my teammate prevent the shooter from releasing the ball on a try?
When the shooter reached the apex of his jump he clearly tried to release the ball on a try, but was unable to do so because my teammate had his hand on the ball. Does this meet the requirement right here? The ruling in 4.25.2 does say that a held ball results IMMEDIATELY. If this word was not in there I would be arguing on your side. I understand your position to be that because the shooter kept possession of the ball and was able to EVENTUALLY release the ball on a try that the release really was not prevented and that play should continue.
I am just troubled by the time reference in the casebook. Until I read this very closely last year, I thought exactly as you do.
PS At least you would not yell at me for calling a 10 second violation because the defense knocked the ball loose at the count of 6 and then after a scramble the offense recovered the ball while still in the backcourt at the count of 9 and was unable to advance the ball past the division line before I reached ten, as one rules-knowledge-deprived howler monkey did today.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 19, 2003, 07:40am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,221
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Hawks Coach and JR,
It seems that there is some problem in defining what it means to prevent the release of the ball.
If we take the play I said happened in my HS game as our example, the question becomes: When, if ever, did my teammate prevent the shooter from releasing the ball on a try?
Nevada,I don't have any problem at all defining what it means to prevent the release of a ball.If the shooter actually releases the ball for a shot before coming back down,he surashell wasn't prevented from doing so.That's also exactly why there was no jump ball called in your high school game.I can't see how anyone could possibly argue that the shot couldn't be released,when it WAS!

Note that CB4.25.2 that you are referring to also states B1 kept A1 from releasing the ball.That's why it results in an "immediate" jump ball.No release=jump ball! Release=no call!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 19th, 2003 at 06:53 AM]
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 19, 2003, 08:50am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 301
JR,

What I am saying is if the defender has his hand on the ball to prevent it from being released at the start of the shot, I am calling a held ball. If he releases it from his hip on his way down is irrelevant because the whistle has already blown. That is the point of immediately calling the held ball. I don't think you can hold your whistle in this situation under the rules.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 19, 2003, 09:55am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 4,802
Quote:
Originally posted by BigJoe
JR,

What I am saying is if the defender has his hand on the ball to prevent it from being released at the start of the shot, I am calling a held ball. If he releases it from his hip on his way down is irrelevant because the whistle has already blown. That is the point of immediately calling the held ball. I don't think you can hold your whistle in this situation under the rules.
By doing this, you are taking away one helluva offensive play. If a player can get a shot off, then he has not been prevented from releasing the ball on a pass or try.
__________________
"To win the game is great. To play the game is greater. But to love the game is the greatest of all."
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 19, 2003, 12:08pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,221
Quote:
Originally posted by BigJoe
JR,

What I am saying is if the defender has his hand on the ball to prevent it from being released at the start of the shot, I am calling a held ball. If he releases it from his hip on his way down is irrelevant because the whistle has already blown. That is the point of immediately calling the held ball. I don't think you can hold your whistle in this situation under the rules.
Under the rules,you HAVE to hold your whistle to see if the the player gets the shot off.How can you possibly call a held ball for a defensive player preventing the shooter from releasing the ball on a try,as per R4-25-2,when the shooter actually DOES release the ball? The bottom line is that if the defensive player did NOT prevent the shooter from releasing the ball on a try. Rule 4-25 therefore IS NOT applicable and you CAN'T use it as justification for calling a held ball.

Big Joe,you have nothing in the rules anywhere to justify your calling a held ball.You can't use Casebook play 4.25.2 either.That one isn't applicable because B1 actually prevented A1 from releasing a try in it. What you are trying to call a held ball is detailed in Casebook play 4.43.3SitA(b) as being legal and is not a held ball.



[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 19th, 2003 at 11:11 AM]
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 20, 2003, 07:04am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,346
JR,
You have made it clear that if the shooter is able to release the ball before returning to the floor, you do not consider any action by the defense to have met the requirements of a held ball. Therefore, your timeline for deciding whether or not a held ball occurred lasts until the shooter returns to the floor. That is certainly a reasonable way of officiating this play.

But now, with that in mind, please consider this play: A1 jumps intending to shoot. At the apex of his jump he attempts to release the ball, but because B1 puts his hand on it at this time he is unable to do so. A1 then pulls the ball back down to his hip and before returning to the floor is able to release a pass to a nearby teammate.

In this play, it is clear that B1 prevented A1 from releasing a try, but A1 was able to eventually get off a pass before returning to the floor. Big Joe would call a held ball on this play according to 4-25-2. Would you do the same or let play continue? Does it matter to you that A1 passed the ball from his hip instead of shot it as in the previous play I provided?
Basically, I am wondering if the first attempt for a try is prevented at time X, do we allow the player a second attempt to release the ball on a try or a pass at time Y (provided he has not returned to the floor), or do we call a held ball immediately at time X?


Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:34am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1