Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game ...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And it is not about understanding, is is about disagreement.

This really explains so much.

[just another ref]

I hear the thread lock rattling.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I hear the thread lock rattling.

Somebody must have lost the key.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I hear the thread lock rattling.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Somebody must have lost the key.

I don't think this thread has delved that far into insanity yet.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I hear the thread lock rattling.

Approximately 140 posts too late.

[Adam]

I'm reminded of the time a friend of mine tried showing me Amway, and his grandson, unable to contain his excitement in the middle of the presentation, exclaimed,

"Show him the circles, Grandpa!"

This is just going in circles now. It's run its course.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

This really explains so much.

It should. I am trying to figure out why I must agree with what is on a list. You have not explained that to me yet.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It should. I am trying to figure out why I must agree with what is on a list. You have not explained that to me yet.

Peace

I'm not saying you have to. I'm saying you're not even understanding what it is you're disagreeing with. Or, you're intentionally misstating their opinions to make some point.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm not saying you have to. I'm saying you're not even understanding what it is you're disagreeing with. Or, you're intentionally misstating their opinions to make some point.

I understand, I just disagree with the premise. And the example you gave from Adam, happens all the time without any specifics being given to the thrower. I have had coaches think it was a travel and I was not even the administering official and I was not anywhere near enough to hear what an officials said or did not say to the thrower. It did not change the reaction of a coach that felt they could travel out of bounds on a throw-in. You really need to try that one again.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I understand, I just disagree with the premise. And the example you gave from Adam, happens all the time without any specifics being given to the thrower. I have had coaches think it was a travel and I was not even the administering official and I was not anywhere near enough to hear what an officials said or did not say to the thrower. It did not change the reaction of a coach that felt they could travel out of bounds on a throw-in. You really need to try that one again.

Peace

You seem to be misunderstanding again.
The scenario you are discussing is:
1. Official tells thrower not to move.
2. Thrower doesn't keep his pivot foot and moves within the prescribed limits.
3. Opposing coach complains.

That's not what we're discussing. We're saying that telling a player not to move is just as likely to perpetuate the rule myth as an official who calls traveling on a throw in. It's not a direct relationship between #1 and #3 above. It's a coach who has heard #1, maybe back when he was a player, and then believes it to his core (like a player or coach believing they get 2 steps without a travel).

[Travelling Man]

If the subset of amateur refs like "us" [on this web forum] cannot even agree on the correctness of the "don't move" admonition, then what on God's green earth makes us even think that we can influence the larger population of coaches, players, fans, and media as to the invalidity of the "don't move" admonishment? We cannot even get concensus amongst the 10 folks who are commenting on it via this web.
But as I said earlier---there is no competitive advantage gained in either case.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Travelling Man

There is no competitive advantage gained in either case.

You must have missed this one:

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is a good example of a player being handicapped if he doesn't know the details of a rule. If the thrower is pressured, he needs to take advantage of the freedom that he does have. This is, after all, the only place where a ball fake can include jumping and returning to the floor.

And the four examples where coaches were charged with technical fouls.

Originally Posted by BillyMac: I had to T up a coach this past year because he wouldn't stop complaining to my partner, who, as the administering official, let a player "move" on a designated spot throwin. The coach kept saying, "But he can't move". My partner tried, and I tried, to explain the movement limitations on a designated spot throwin, but he wouldn't accept any of that, he just kept saying, "But he can't move". Eventually, I had to tell him to, "Sit down".

Originally Posted by Camron Rust: I've T'd a coach over an opponent who "moved" on a spot throw in because he was sure they couldn't "move". Where did he get that idea? From officials who tell the players and coaches "don't move". By saying "don't move" you have confused them, not informed them.

Originally Posted by JeffM: Player asks me to back the defender up to give him three feet. I told him no, but that he can back up as far as he would like. He points to a spot three feet behind him and asks if that is ok. I told him yes and he could back up all the way to the wall if he would like. The idea seemed foreign to him. I think very few players understand this rule. Otherwise, they would back up more frequently to have a clear passing lane.

Originally Posted by Adam

4. I've T'd a coach (lower level game) for arguing about a thrower who "traveled."

And this one:

Originally Posted by JeffM

Player asks me to back the defender up to give him three feet. I told him no, but that he can back up as far as he would like. He points to a spot three feet behind him and asks if that is ok. I told him yes and he could back up all the way to the wall if he would like. The idea seemed foreign to him. I think very few players understand this rule. Otherwise, they would back up more frequently to have a clear passing lane.

If we keep saying, "Don't move", then eventually, a lot of players, coaches, fans, and maybe a few ignorant officials, are going to think that the player can't move.

And, if you're one of those 10,000 IAABO members, in one of those thirty-eight states, and you say, "Don't move", then you need to read the IAABO Mechanics Manual.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

IAABO Crew of Two Basketball Officials Manual (Page 38) Throwin E) Throwin Administration 1) Administering official shall visually sweep the floor d) signal type of throwin 1) designated spot (may use verbiage, if so, "designated spot")

And, as an IAABO member, if you continue to say, "Don't move", then you should hang your head in shame. Shame on you. Shame on you. Shame on you. Shame. Shame. Shame.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

That is not what we're discussing. We're saying that telling a player not to move is just as likely to perpetuate the rule myth as an official who calls traveling on a throw in. It's not a direct relationship between #1 and #3 above. It's a coach who has heard #1, maybe back when he was a player, and then believes it to his core (like a player or coach believing they get 2 steps without a travel).

Then you are missing my point all together. Because I do not believe that what we say quickly defines or perpetuates anything. It is that simple. And trying to suggest otherwise is not really listening to what I feel about this topic. If you feel differently then so be it, but not my point of view and nothing you are going to say is going to change that feeling based off of my extensive experience with this or other issues in the rules. I have been doing this for some times and I feel most of the time players and coaches could give a damn what we say, especially when they argue when we tell them actual rules in other situations. I have given coaches T's much more over things where actual rules were explained in rather detail then two words that no one but one or two people may or may not hear.

IN MY OPINION is not my responsibility to teach a coach something that they could read in the rulebook. Maybe this does not happen in your state, but they give coaches rulebooks and casebooks at the state level (or at least they once did). So any issue they can read for themselves and find out what is actually listed. But if they actually pick one up and read it is another story. It is a running joke in our state that with Rules Meetings (now on video) that used to be attended in person and required for all schools to have a representative watch the meeting and the content discussed. It is well known that the school would send a low-level coach (often said the Freshman B coach) to those meetings or to watch the video and the varsity coaches would have no idea what was actually discussed or the content of the material even mentioned. So when POEs about slapping the back board were emphasized some years back as an example, coaches would want a T for slapping the backboard no matter how legitimate a block attempt was or would complain that we should call a GT for the slapping of the backboard as well. And that would be the first week of the season when a coach would go off about a rule that not only was discussed, but discussed much of the meeting and the rule discussed in detail. So now all of a sudden two words means so much that they not assume something based off of those words, but cannot comprehend a rule that was gone on in detail. My state has said over and over and over again that "Two hands on the ball handler is a foul." But the minute you call that handcheck, you get an argument. STOP GIVING THESE COACHES THAT MUCH CREDIT!!! I also say somethings on the first of multiple FTs "Relax guys on the first one." I will never forget someone tried to tell me that "You should not tell them that, coaches do not want them to relax." Well I have yet in all my years to have a single coach get upset with me about me saying that to convey the message that the ball is not live. And I have said in on purpose waiting for that time to come, I am still waiting. I guess I will be waiting for a coach to get upset if I happened to say, "Don't move."

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess I will be waiting for a coach to get upset if I happened to say, "Don't move."

And while you're waiting for that to happen, I'll still be waiting for you to respond to my questions:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

JRutledge: What does the IHSA say? How about your own "Chicagoland" mechanics? I know that you guys use your own mechanics. Go anything in writing?

They probably don't tell you what not to say, doesn't matter, although I'm pretty sure that if they did tell you what not to say, it wouldn't be not to say, "Designated spot". I'm more interested in what they, like the NFHS, and IAABO (realizing that you have your own set of mechanics independent of either), suggest what Illinois, or Chicagoland, officials should say during a designated spot throwin. There have to be some type of written mechanics guidelines. What do these say in regard to administering designated spot throwins?