Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Largely because they've heard it before from officials who are misstating the restrictions, and some that even call it wrong. With every official who confirms it by saying "don't move", that is one more player that believes the wrong thing. And then, some of them become officials and call it that way because they believe it to be that way. Why insist on doing something incorrect when it is just as easy to do it right? Why be party to the proliferation of a fallacy when you can accomplish all you need and be accurate without any more effort than just admitting that 'don't move' is simply not accurate or correct and changing to "spot throw" or something like that which doesn't imply restrictions that don't exist? It is hard to for whoever is responsible for the teaching of the players to do it right when they have people in positions of authority directing their players incorrectly.

Camron Rust: Where do I send the check?

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

"before the shot" is just as easy to say as "on the floor" but is actually accurate in its meaning since it says that the foul occurred before the shot. A player could be shooting while still "on the floor" so a player could be getting 2 FTs having been on the floor. Why confuse thing when you don't need to?

"Spot" isn't used at the time of a foul but when administering the throwin on the backcourt endline mostly after a timeout.

Thanks - I'll go with "before the shot".

[JeffM]

Boys HS summer league game last weekend....player asks me to back the defender up to give him three feet. I told him no, but that he can back up as far as he would like. He points to a spot three feet behind him and asks if that is ok. I told him yes and he could back up all the way to the wall if he would like. The idea seemed foreign to him.

I think very few players understand this rule. Otherwise, they would back up more frequently to have a clear passing lane.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree, but we should still set a good example.

What you are debating is not about a good example or bad example. It is a personal pet peeve. That is fine, but not everyone agrees with personal pet peeves no matter how logical you might think they are.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not insisting on anything but that no one really cares that much what we say. They have plenty influences other than us. Once again, it really does not matter what we say, they do not take us that literally as you and others are trying to make it.

And I just came from an NCAA Football meeting where if you would listen to the media, you would think hard hits are illegal in the game all because they listened to the media. Not true, but that is what players and coaches and fans think are the rules outlaw.

Peace

You just made my point. There is enough misinformation out there without us adding to it or confirming it. We should be seeking to correct it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You just made my point. There is enough misinformation out there without us adding to it or confirming it. We should be seeking to correct it.

Well then say what you feel (as I have stated before). I will continue to say what I feel and I think this is an either/or kind of statement. And you certainly have not proven to me but in some paranoid mindset that someone actually believes "Don't move" means only that they cannot move literally.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And you certainly have not proven to me but in some paranoid mindset that someone actually believes "Don't move" means only that they cannot move literally.

Proof:

Almost all players will stand in their little shoulder width area on designated spot throwins. A large number of players probably don't know that the movement limits on a designated spot thrownin are actually more liberal than they believe. Seldom have I observed players taking the legal step to the left, or to the right, of the designated area, to avoid defensive pressure. I believe that the reason for this is that that have been told by parents, coaches, and officials, over the years, that during a throwin, other than a run the endline throwin, they most "not move", that, "Don't move" means, literally, that they must keep their feet in their little shoulder width area. We can even go back one generation, that those parents, as players, and those coaches, as players, heard the same, "Don't move", advice from some of those that officiated their games back in the day.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I know at least one (coach), the one that I had to sit down, who thought that, "Don't move", that he probably heard from other officials on my local board, either as a coach, or as a player, a few years ago, really meant "Don't move".

Originally Posted by JeffM

Player asks me to back the defender up to give him three feet. I told him no, but that he can back up as far as he would like. He points to a spot three feet behind him and asks if that is ok. I told him yes and he could back up all the way to the wall if he would like. The idea seemed foreign to him. I think very few players understand this rule. Otherwise, they would back up more frequently to have a clear passing lane.

I have also had dozens of experiences, like the situation that JeffM experienced (above), over the past thirty-two years, most with Catholic middle school players, but a few with high school varsity players. Yes, we can blame their parents, and coaches, for poor instruction, but those parents, and coaches, had to get the idea in their head that the players couldn't move backward from somewhere, in some cases, I'm sure, from officials stating, "Don't move".

In addition, some, not a lot, but some, players, coaches, and fans, may believe that the inbounder in a designated spot throwin situation, must maintain some type of pivot foot within that little shoulder width area. I believe that the reason for this is that they have been told that by parents, coaches, and maybe some really ignorant officials, over the years, who have probably, in turn, been influenced by officials, over the years, saying, "Don't move". After all, "Don't move", is what the coach of a second grader says to his player who has picked up his dribble and now must decide what to do next. After hearing, "Don't move", from parents, coaches, and officials, over several years, in different contexts, players will just decide to not move, literally, when advised to do so by an official, even when, by rule, they are allowed some movement to gain a legal advantage.

Proof:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The occasional, incorrect, inbounding "travel" call, either from an ignorant official, or expected from an ignorant coach, or a fan. Maybe we've never observed it in person, but it's not a myth, it does exist, not often, but it really exists.

There are many misperceptions, misunderstandings, and myths, regarding the rules of basketball. Where do these come from? Multiple sources, including a few, probably only a very few, from officials themselves. Who's going to clear up these myths? Officials. Who else will do it? Will all these misperceptions, misunderstandings, and myths be cleared up in my lifetime? No, but I'm going to clear up as many as I can in the short time that I have remaining here on this planet. I feel that it's my duty as a basketball official, and as a guardian of the game.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Maybe not the only source but why insist on being part of the problem when you can be part of the solution?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There is enough misinformation out there without us adding to it or confirming it. We should be seeking to correct it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The idea seemed foreign to him.

Maybe it was your Virginian accent. I've been to Richmond, and you guys do talk funny.

Note: There really is such a thing as "Southern hospitality". I've never met so many polite, well mannered, and pleasant people, than on my weekend in Richmond. I found the same thing to be true on my vacation in North Carolina. You guys must think that Northeasterners, specifically New Englanders, are impolite oafs, when you travel north?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Almost all players will stand in their little shoulder width area on designated spot throwins. A large number of players probably don't know that the movement limits on a designated spot thrownin are actually more liberal than they believe. Seldom have I observed players taking the legal step to the left, or to the right, of the designated area, to avoid defensive pressure. I believe that the reason for this is that that have been told by parents, coaches, and officials, over the years, that during a throwin, other than a run the endline throwin, they most "not move", that, "Don't move" means, literally, that they must keep their feet in their little shoulder width area.

And obviously what you are saying to them is clearly not changing anything. And you claim "Don't move" should not be said and in your own experience nothing changes. I am not there, so you cannot blame that on me. And if you are telling people more, they must not be listening to you at all as I suggested.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In addition, some, not a lot, but some, players, coaches, and fans, may believe that the inbounder in a designated spot throwin situation, must maintain some type of pivot foot within that little shoulder width area. I believe that the reason for this is that they have been told that by parents, coaches, and maybe some really ignorant officials, over there years, who have probably, in turn, been influenced by officials, over the years, saying, "Don't move".

Billy, I have said almost nothing most of the time and they still think that way. I never stated that I said this ever single time. Actually there is no reason to even say that on sideline throw-ins because there is no issue of the two types of throw-in options and players still behave similarily.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

There are many misperceptions, misunderstandings, and myths, regarding the rules of basketball. Where do these come from? Multiple sources, including a few, probably only a very few, from officials themselves. Who's going to clear up these myths? Officials. Will all these misperceptions, misunderstandings, and myths be cleared up in my lifetime? No, but I'm going to clear up as many as I can in the short time that I have remaining here on this planet. I feel that it's my duty as a basketball official, and as a guardian of the game.

They watch more TV and listen to commentators much more then they ever listen to us. If they listened that well, they would listen when we tell them to stop doing all kinds of things. How many times have I seen a player get warned or is talked to about something that might start from minor situations to big situations that really have influence on the game and you think they are that taken away by this one issue or one phrase. But for some reason you actually think this is a major issue and keep acting like this is the reason players do not understand what they can do in an designated spot or other types of throw-ins. That is really funny to me. Sorry, but it is.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And obviously what you are saying to them is clearly not changing anything ... I have said almost nothing most of the time and they still think that way.

Neither you, alone, created this minor, hairspliting, problem. Nor can I, alone, fix this minor, hairsplitting problem. My goal is to just fix this minor, hairspliting, problem here in my little corner of Connecticut, maybe not with hard-nosed, grizzled, veterans, but certainly with every new class of officials that we train. I will leave it to others to fix this minor, hairspliting, problem all over the country, or, all over the world.

Please note that it wasn't my intent to publish this list on the Forum with the intent of "training" all Forum members. I was just asking for suggestions to add to the list for my local newsletter, that will only be read by officials in my little corner of Connecticut.

Also note that the working title of my list is, "Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game", not, "Things Officials Must Never Be Saying In A Game". The, "Should", and the, "Probably", leave a lot of wiggle room.

[Rob1968]

A) Mark Sr. would remember that "way back in the day," the thrower couldn't legally move, and for some time, the signal for the violation was travelling. The influence of fathers who've played under that rule has lessened, and is now infrequently coming from grandfathers. . .

B) I consistently have partners who give me a hard time because I insist that players may not participate in warm-ups while wearing jewelry. My response is usually that my partners know I do a lot of training and mentoring, and I dare not deteriorate my credibility by not doing things "by the Book," and that I'm protecting us, our Officials Assn. and the entire school system by folloowing the liability guidelines.
Last season, I had to tell a player to remove the earphones and the misic player from her trunks! - much to the surprize of my partner. . .

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

They watch more TV and listen to commentators much more then they ever listen to us.

Certainly another source of many of the misperceptions, misunderstandings, and myths regarding basketball rules. I have had high school coaches who, near the end of the game, want a front court sideline throwin after they called time out with a player out of bounds on the backcourt endline.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But for some reason you actually think this is a major issue.

No. I do not think that this is a major issue.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This minor, hairspliting, problem.

Now, calling the endline the baseline, that's a major issue that I will be starting a new thread on very soon. Stay tuned.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Mark Sr. would remember that "way back in the day," the thrower couldn't legally move, and for some time, the signal for the violation was travelling.

I'm as old as dirt, officiating thirty-two years, and I don't remember that mechanic.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

I consistently have partners who give me a hard time because I insist that players may not participate in warm-ups while wearing jewelry.

Agree, however, how about a citation please. Also, I believe that the NFHS came out with an interpretation regarding this about fifteen years ago. I can't locate it. Anybody got that interpretation? Nevaderef?