Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game ...

[Travelling Man]

Short of every ref bringing his/her pocket-copy of nfhs rule book to each game and indicating exactly where these such "pseudo-violations" are allowed; there's really no way to dislodge the national [international] occurence of these un-founded admonishments. Moreover, the players and coaches will continue to practice them. But imagine the TIME it would take to enforce /educate the participants [coaches and players]. At the end of the day, the continued enforcement of these "pseudo-violations" does not create any competitive advantage for either team, although evidently they do provide good fodder for web chat.

[Adam]

You're going to need to reword this.

What do you mean by enforcement of pseudo violations? Are you suggesting we call the stuff coaches think is a violation?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree, however, how about a citation please. Also, I believe that the NFHS came out with an interpretation regarding this about fifteen years ago. I can't locate it. Anybody got that interpretation? Nevaderef?

NFHS Case Book. Rule 3-5, Situation B

The officials are on the court prior to the game observing the team warm-ups. One official notices that a member of Team A is wearing a decorative necklace.

RULING: The official should inform the team member to remove the jewelry immediately. Upon compliance, the team member may continue to warm up with his or her teammates and may start the game without penalty.

[JRutledge]

God forbid, do not tell a player they cannot wear them. They might get confused and think that means they cannot wear them at the dance after school or on the way home. After all what we say is teaching the players the rules.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

God forbid, do not tell a player they cannot wear them. They might get confused and think that means they cannot wear them at the dance after school or on the way home. After all what we say is teaching the players the rules.

Peace

One gets the impression you're being intentionally obtuse, Jeff.

Either that or you've done a remarkable job of not understanding anyone's actual point considering how much time you've devoted to this thread.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm as old as dirt, officiating thirty-two years, and I don't remember that mechanic.

I've seen the mechanic used recently on tv by a D1 official, but that doesn't make it right.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

One gets the impression you're being intentionally obtuse, Jeff.

Either that or you've done a remarkable job of not understanding anyone's actual point considering how much time you've devoted to this thread.

I think that is is normal state of being...given the number of times he insists on doing his own thing contrary to what the rules books say.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

One gets the impression you're being intentionally obtuse, Jeff.

Either that or you've done a remarkable job of not understanding anyone's actual point considering how much time you've devoted to this thread.

No, I just find this (as I do other things) rather silly that someone is that worried about what people do or say in this or similar situations. I put this on the scale of using the proper signal for a PC foul and someone really being upset that someone does not go through the specified steps as listed in the rulebook or Official's Manual (if used). And it is not about understanding, is is about disagreement. The point can be made over and over and that is not going to change how I feel about that point (as I do not expect to change anyone's mind as to what they do). It makes little difference to me if someone does something different or does not use a term, but to act like everyone's reaction to this phrase is the same is also silly to me, when there has been no concrete example of how someone really felt they could not move. It seems to me Billy at least is spending a lot of time trying to lecture me as to why what he feels is important. Honestly we can move on at this point, and like him I have been doing this for awhile too. I have an equal right to my opinion as what I do obviously works for me.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

[B]NFHS Case Book. Rule 3-5, Situation B: The officials are on the court prior to the game observing the team warm-ups. One official notices that a member of Team A is wearing a decorative necklace. RULING: The official should inform the team member to remove the jewelry immediately. Upon compliance, the team member may continue to warm up with his or her teammates and may start the game without penalty.

Thanks JetMetFan. I knew that it was there somewhere. How about an NFHS annual interpretation, or maybe, it was a point of emphasis?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No, I just find this (as I do other things) rather silly that someone is that worried about what people do or say in this or similar situations. I put this on the scale of using the proper signal for a PC foul and someone really being upset that someone does not go through the specified steps as listed in the rulebook or Official's Manual (if used).

Not the same at all...not standard and not correct are completely different. Yes, it may not a matter all the time or even much of the time.

One misinforms, the other is just different. It certainly isn't as bad as letting a player take 3-4 steps after they end a dribble, however.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And it is not about understanding, is is about disagreement. The point can be made over and over and that is not going to change how I feel about that point (as I do not expect to change anyone's mind as to what they do).

That much we get. You're a lost cause. You'll do what you want even if it isn't correct and causes problems for others because you don't want to change. Fine. Someday, you'll have a situation where something happens in a game that you have to deal with because other officials don't do it right. Of course, you'll blame them. Just remember you are one of them.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It makes little difference to me if someone does something different or does not use a term, but to act like everyone's reaction to this phrase is the same is also silly to me, when there has been no concrete example of how someone really felt they could not move.

Ask the coach I T'd for insisting the player on the other team couldn't move.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It seems to me Billy at least is spending a lot of time trying to lecture me as to why what he feels is important. Honestly we can move on at this point, and like him I have been doing this for awhile too. I have an equal right to my opinion as what I do obviously works for me.

Peace

Just because it works for you doesn't mean its right.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When there has been no concrete examples of how someone really felt they could not move.

Want concrete examples? Alright. Let's count them.

One.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I had to T up a coach this past year because he wouldn't stop complaining to my partner, who, as the administering official, let a player "move" on a designated spot throwin. The coach kept saying, "But he can't move". My partner tried, and I tried, to explain the movement limitations on a designated spot throwin, but he wouldn't accept any of that, he just kept saying, "But he can't move". Eventually, I had to tell him to, "Sit down".

Two.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I've T'd a coach over an opponent who "moved" on a spot throw in because he was sure they couldn't "move". Where did he get that idea? From officials who tell the players and coaches "don't move". By saying "don't move" you have confused them, not informed them.

Three.

Originally Posted by JeffM

Player asks me to back the defender up to give him three feet. I told him no, but that he can back up as far as he would like. He points to a spot three feet behind him and asks if that is ok. I told him yes and he could back up all the way to the wall if he would like. The idea seemed foreign to him. I think very few players understand this rule. Otherwise, they would back up more frequently to have a clear passing lane.

[Adam]

4. I've T'd a coach (lower level game) for arguing about a thrower who "traveled."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And it is not about understanding, is is about disagreement.

This really explains so much.

[just another ref]

I hear the thread lock rattling.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not the same at all...not standard and not correct are completely different. Yes, it may not a matter all the time or even much of the time.

One misinforms, the other is just different. It certainly isn't as bad as letting a player take 3-4 steps after they end a dribble, however.

What does steps have to do with this rule? And if we are counting steps now, why do coaches often use, "He cannot take one and a half step....." when describing traveling? Have you ever called a travel and talked about "steps" before? They obviously got that from some place and it was not necessarily from an official.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That much we get. You're a lost cause. You'll do what you want even if it isn't correct and causes problems for others because you don't want to change. Fine. Someday, you'll have a situation where something happens in a game that you have to deal with because other officials don't do it right. Of course, you'll blame them. Just remember you are one of them.

Ask the coach I T'd for insisting the player on the other team couldn't move.

If you want me to simply agree with you, then yes I am a lost cause. Once again, I have never had an adverse situation to saying "Don't move" to a player. I have never T'd anyone for saying that. I have had to T someone because they felt they could take the ball out anywhere along the end line and expected me to give the ball to them where they want to (go to the other side of the lane). But that is something that happened almost 10 years ago and has not been an issue since. I do not base my officiating philosophies off of one incident that is not happening all around me in some capacity. And other than this site I have never had this conversation and do not see myself having it anytime soon with the people I work with or around. And the situation I have described, I have never heard of a person complain of having a similar communication break down that I once upon a time.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Just because it works for you doesn't mean its right.

Right and wrong is still subjective. It always has been and always will be. If it was not the case everyone would believe in the same God and practice their religion (within the same religion mind you) the exact same way. So why do we think this issue is any different?

Peace