Rule question

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Since this thread started with my question, I'll ask a few more.

Regarding 3-seconds in the lane. Is there anything that causes a 3-second count to restart, similarly to how a closely guarded count is terminated? If player A1 goes into the paint for a shot, misses, and keeps putting up the rebound (and missing) for the next four seconds, what happens? Do I call the 3 seconds or is the count terminated upon a shot attempt?

As the trail, does it matter which arm I use for the 10-second count? I typically use the inside arm, but I watched a few varsity games on tv this week and all the officials used the outside arm.

1) What are the requirements for a 3-second call (see 9-xxx -- sorry no books here)? (asked in the spirit of getting you in the book). Are they all met during a shot? As a practical matter, have a more patient whistle during an interrupted dribble , "loose ball" (as an undefined term).

2) Doesn't really matter (unless in your area it does). Some say outside, some say table side. Some say whichever you didn't use to count the previous 5-seconds for inbouonding (if applicable).

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) What are the requirements for a 3-second call (see 9-xxx -- sorry no books here)? (asked in the spirit of getting you in the book).

Thanks for that! So you know I now understand the rule, the requirements for a three seconds call is team control in the frontcourt. I made a call earlier this season where team A had a frontcourt baseline throw-in, and the coach was mad I called 3 seconds even though the ball was only inside the court for 2 seconds. Do you think I should have a patient whistle on inbounds plays such as these?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Thanks for that! So you know I now understand the rule, the requirements for a three seconds call is team control in the frontcourt. I made a call earlier this season where team A had a frontcourt baseline throw-in, and the coach was mad I called 3 seconds even though the ball was only inside the court for 2 seconds. Do you think I should have a patient whistle on inbounds plays such as these?

This is not a question of a patient whistle. It is a question of knowing when the count starts.

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is not a question of a patient whistle. It is a question of knowing when the count starts.

Right, but as bob jenkins suggested, perhaps give some leeway during an interrupted dribble? I can see team A having a frontcourt baseline throw-in, player A1 being in the lane for two seconds before the ball is passed inbounds, and then remaining for one second after the ball is inbounds. In such a case I could call three seconds, but unless there is an advantage gained, should I? What if player A1 hits three seconds in the lane but is headed out?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Right, but as bob jenkins suggested, perhaps give some leeway during an interrupted dribble? I can see team A having a frontcourt baseline throw-in, player A1 being in the lane for two seconds before the ball is passed inbounds, and then remaining for one second after the ball is inbounds. In such a case I could call three seconds, but unless there is an advantage gained, should I? What if player A1 hits three seconds in the lane but is headed out?

Is there team control in the frontcourt during an end line throw-in?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Right, but as bob jenkins suggested, perhaps give some leeway during an interrupted dribble? I can see team A having a frontcourt baseline throw-in, player A1 being in the lane for two seconds before the ball is passed inbounds, and then remaining for one second after the ball is inbounds. In such a case I could call three seconds, but unless there is an advantage gained, should I? What if player A1 hits three seconds in the lane but is headed out?

Team control in the frontcourt is different than team control during a throw-in.

The count, by rule, doesn't start until the ball is inbounds and there is team control in the frontcourt. Out of bounds for a throw-in does not equal frontcourt.

No good official is looking to nail teams on three second violations. It's time to stop looking to do so, IMO.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

In such a case I could call three seconds,

You could call it, but you'd be incorrect, by rule (and by practicality).

The rule requires (a) TC (b) in the FC.

You have (a) during a throw-in, but not (b). The inbounds spot is OOB; it's neither in the FC nor in the BC.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Right, but as bob jenkins suggested, perhaps give some leeway during an interrupted dribble? I can see team A having a frontcourt baseline throw-in, player A1 being in the lane for two seconds before the ball is passed inbounds, and then remaining for one second after the ball is inbounds. In such a case I could call three seconds,

If you did, you'd be wrong.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Thanks for that! So you know I now understand the rule, the requirements for a three seconds call is team control in the frontcourt. I made a call earlier this season where team A had a frontcourt baseline throw-in, and the coach was mad I called 3 seconds even though the ball was only inside the court for 2 seconds. Do you think I should have a patient whistle on inbounds plays such as these?

You need to know the rule better. The count doesn't begin during a throw-in. While team control exists on a throw-in, that's not the same as team control in the frontcourt, which is what the rule (9-7-1) requires.

Here's a bit of advice from a guy who's been around a while -- don't make the 3-second violation your best call.

Don't avoid it when it needs to be called, but if you're calling them more than once or twice a week you should probably think about the spirit and intent of the rule.

Originally Posted by Rich

You need to know the rule better. The count doesn't begin during a throw-in. While team control exists on a throw-in, that's not the same as team control in the frontcourt, which is what the rule (9-7-1) requires.

Are you saying the baseline (and out of bounds area?) under a team's basket is not part of their frontcourt? I read the rule in the book just now but am still confused.

Originally Posted by Rich

Here's a bit of advice from a guy who's been around a while -- don't make the 3-second violation your best call.

I promise I won't!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Are you saying the baseline (and out of bounds area?) under a team's basket is not part of their frontcourt? I read the rule in the book just now but am still confused.

That's exactly right. The frontcourt is the area inbounds between (and not including) the endline and the division line. Out of bounds is neither frontcourt or backcourt.

[APG]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Are you saying the baseline (and out of bounds area?) under a team's basket is not part of their frontcourt? I read the rule in the book just now but am still confused.



I promise I won't!

This is from the last year's basketball interpretations:

SITUATION 2: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. The administering official reaches a four-second count when A1 passes the ball to A2, who had been standing in the free-throw lane since A1 had the ball at his/her disposal. RULING: Legal. Even though a team is now in control during a throw-in, the three-second rule specifically requires that a team be in control in its frontcourt for a violation to occur. Technically speaking, the thrower-in is out of bounds and not located in the frontcourt. (4-35-2; 9-7)

Ok, got another one. I am the trail. Team A has gathered a defensive rebound and is in their backcourt. Player A1 is dribbling the ball towards the division line, while team B is pressing. Player A1 passes the ball from his backcourt location to A2, who was located in the frontcourt, but is jumping and lands in the backcourt. A2, in mid-jump, taps the ball back to A2. Due to A2's previous location being in the frontcourt, I call an over and back violation. Is this correct? Does it matter if the pass-back is a tap or with two hand?

[APG]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Ok, got another one. I am the trail. Team A has gathered a defensive rebound and is in their backcourt. Player A1 is dribbling the ball towards the division line, while team B is pressing. Player A1 passes the ball from his backcourt location to A2, who was located in the frontcourt, but is jumping and lands in the backcourt. A2, in mid-jump, taps the ball back to A2. Due to A2's previous location being in the frontcourt, I call an over and back violation. Is this correct? Does it matter if the pass-back is a tap or with two hand?

Casebook play 9.9.1 Situation C

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Ok, got another one. I am the trail. Team A has gathered a defensive rebound and is in their backcourt. Player A1 is dribbling the ball towards the division line, while team B is pressing. Player A1 passes the ball from his backcourt location to A2, who was located in the frontcourt, but is jumping and lands in the backcourt. A2, in mid-jump, taps the ball back to A2. Due to A2's previous location being in the frontcourt, I call an over and back violation. Is this correct? Does it matter if the pass-back is a tap or with two hand?

APG posted the appropriate case play.

"But jTheUmp", you say "that case play deals with a non-airborne player, and my situation deals with an airborne player."

The fact that the player was airborne doesn't make any difference. Airborne players retain the status (inbounds, OOB, front court, backcourt) that they had prior to going airborne. Or, as has been more eloquently stated here previously:
"You are where you were until you get where you're going"

tl;dr: You got the call correct, it does not matter if the pass (or tap) is with one hand or two.