Rule question

[ODog]

How has this thread reached three pages without anyone calling B.S. on Seanwestref's questions?

I know and respect the spirit of treating everyone with an open mind, but ...

There is absolutely NO WAY he is an official who has ever sat through any sort of class or passed any sort of test. NO. WAY.

I'm not saying he doesn't do games at some level somewhere, but suddenly 3-whistle games? Please.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ODog

How has this thread reached three pages without anyone calling B.S. on Seanwestref's questions?

I just don't like him "shifting gears" in the middle of a thread. It's like he's hijacking his own thread. He should try clicking on the new thread button. It works every time.

[APG]

Originally Posted by ODog

How has this thread reached three pages without anyone calling B.S. on Seanwestref's questions?

I know and respect the spirit of treating everyone with an open mind, but ...

There is absolutely NO WAY he is an official who has ever sat through any sort of class or passed any sort of test. NO. WAY.

I'm not saying he doesn't do games at some level somewhere, but suddenly 3-whistle games? Please.

No, there's nothing the OP has asked that is necessarily out of the ordinary for newer officials. Just because you may have found them to be rudimentary or easy doesn't mean a new official will pick it up off the bat.

And you don't know the circumstances behind why the official is working 3-man.

And to the seanwestref...if you have drastically different scenarios not related to the original thread, you'd have an easier time getting answers by starting a new thread.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I just don't like him "shifting gears" in the middle of a thread. It's like he's hijacking his own thread. He should try clicking on the new thread button. It works every time.

Originally Posted by APG

...if you have drastically different scenarios not related to the original thread, you'd have an easier time getting answers by starting a new thread.

Thanks! I will create a new thread from now on. In this case, I thought I would knock out all my questions in one place instead of cluttering the front page.

[APG]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Thanks! I will create a new thread from now on. In this case, I thought I would knock out all my questions in one place instead of cluttering the front page.

You could make one thread and ask about multiple scenarios.

Originally Posted by ODog

How has this thread reached three pages without anyone calling B.S. on Seanwestref's questions?

Maybe because they are more polite than you? What would "calling BS" on my questions look like? Am I not allowed to ask simple, basic questions? (sarcasm here, also rhetorical)

Originally Posted by APG

Just because you may have found them to be rudimentary or easy...

Ah, there it is. I am not advanced enough for ODog. Good thing others are more tolerant of young officials, and are willing to help them with questions almost every young official deals with.

Down, ODog, Down! Bad ODog!

Originally Posted by ODog

I know and respect the spirit of treating everyone with an open mind, but ...

I hope your friends have learned to simply ignore anything you say after "but", because I am fast learning to. You are a lot more polite before you put in the "but".

Originally Posted by ODog

There is absolutely NO WAY he is an official who has ever sat through any sort of class or passed any sort of test. NO. WAY.

"Absolutely NO WAY"? How confident are you? Would you stake your life on it? Taking the (in my area) NFHS test is not that difficult. It is, after all, an open-book test. (yes I passed)

Originally Posted by ODog

I'm not saying he doesn't do games at some level somewhere, but suddenly 3-whistle games? Please.

Again with the "but". Yes, "suddenly 3-whistle games". If you want to know how I got this opportunity, simply ask me. Otherwise: http://i.imgur.com/06hE1.gif

Originally Posted by APG

And you don't know the circumstances behind why the official is working 3-man.

Again, you don't know.

Originally Posted by ODog

Please.

And thank you, good sir!

[ODog]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

"Absolutely NO WAY"? How confident are you? Would you stake your life on it? Taking the (in my area) NFHS test is not that difficult. It is, after all, an open-book test. (yes I passed)

Are there any classroom sessions prior to the test date where an interpreter walks aspiring officials through the rules book or is it just show up with a book on test day and release for assignment anyone who passes?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ODog

Are there any classroom sessions prior to the test date where an interpreter walks aspiring officials through the rules book or is it just show up with a book on test day and release for assignment anyone who passes?

Why would that matter? I've been doing this 20 years and I dig into the rules deeper than most and I still find things that I didn't know occasionally.

For most rookies, they get a lot of stuff wrong even after they've heard it....it is overload. You can find a lot of stuff in the book as you need while taking the test but that doesn't mean they're remember it all on demand.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Why would that matter?

Because classes make it significantly less likely you'll have a "certified" official calling 3 seconds on inbounds plays and during shot and rebound attempts. Just offering the exam without any contextual rules/floor training is irresponsible and unfair to local teams who use that pool of officials.

Three seconds is also probably the top myth debunked in a new officials class, the kind of "light bulb" information that makes you say to yourself, "Whoa. That's one to file away."

I know some of you think this is coming from some high-and-mighty douche, but trust me, I know I'm the donk who ruled "back of the backboard" on an inbounds pass that wound up on the court.

I just find it scary and borderline reckless that someone who actually has a rules book, passed a test and is doing games isn't familiar with the 3-second rule -- at all.

That's why I found the whole thread fishy and perhaps a "chain yank" that had gone on too long (insert Manti Te'o joke here).

Once again, I was wrong. So now I'm just curious if classes are available to aspiring officials in seanwestref's area.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by ODog

Three seconds is also probably the top myth debunked in a new officials class, the kind of "light bulb" information that makes you say to yourself, "Whoa. That's one to file away."

Curious as to the specifics of the "myth" as taught in your class.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Curious as to the specifics of the "myth" as taught in your class.

As you know all too well from the jackals in the stands, it seems a large number of people think a three-second violation is for standing in the lane for 3 seconds, without regard to the location of the ball or who has control of it.

And even when you finally explain it to "that coach" who just decides to yell "three seconds" indiscriminately, you tend to get the "OK, I didn't realilze that. Thank you."

And now we know even working officials who have passed a test also subscribe to the myth.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ODog

Because classes make it significantly less likely you'll have a "certified" official calling 3 seconds on inbounds plays and during shot and rebound attempts. Just offering the exam without any contextual rules/floor training is irresponsible and unfair to local teams who use that pool of officials.

Three seconds is also probably the top myth debunked in a new officials class, the kind of "light bulb" information that makes you say to yourself, "Whoa. That's one to file away."

FYI, I teach those classes in my area.

You have to consider that you get a wide variety of people that want to be officials....from someone who barely knows the basketball is round to those that have been paid to play professionally. It is simply unrealistic to expect that all of them will know all of the rules and mechanics after even 1-2 years of classes. It is just not going to happen in the real world. That is why they're on the freshman games (or middle school in some areas). They're there to make mistakes....of all types. That is how they ultimately learn. For that matter, I've corrected accomplished 20-year vets on rules issues on more than one occasion..

If you made people be experts in the rules before giving them their first game, we'd never get new people to last long enough to work their first game and we'd be extremely shorthanded.

[ODog]

I just think if seanwestref had gone to a class to complement the test -- your class included, CRust -- he wouldn't be asking about the fundamental principles of one of the rules most butchered by fans, coaches and players.

This isn't "knowing ALL the rules" (which I certainly don't). This is knowing the 3-second rule, the one you know from your classes has everyone going "ahhhhh haaa," similar to when you tell them someone can rebound their own airball or that a kick has to be intentional.

Every game every one of us has ever done has had at least one person (and likely many more) mistakenly clamoring for 3 seconds.

I do see what you're saying re: the spectrum, however. I guess I don't consider that people who haven't been around basketball much would take an interest in officiating it, even though I've seen it in action. You're definitely right.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Maybe because they are more polite than you? What would "calling BS" on my questions look like? Am I not allowed to ask simple, basic questions? (sarcasm here, also rhetorical)

APG already responded to him. Your retort was unnecessary. He might have been over the top, but he has a point. I can't imagine an official getting on the court (especially having passed the test - even open book) that doesn't understand the 3-second rule. But say it happened. You, not understanding this rule, somehow pass the test without reading this rule, and end up on the court.

Then you make the call and a coach yells at you for it. Did it not occur to you that you MIGHT be wrong? Sure as hell would have occurred to me - and I'd be digging in the rule book that night - likely, if possible, in the locker room before driving off. I would bet that my first year (for each sport), I was in the rulebook before driving off at least 3/4 of the time. Possibly to confirm I was right about something, and sometimes learning I was wrong. The coach jumping on you for not knowing a rule in your first year should ALWAYS trigger this.

We try to welcome new officials here. Sometimes we do a crappy job of it, but based on this thread alone, I'd say you got a better welcome than many. We all remember being new. But we also remember checking the BOOK first - then possibly coming here and stating a situation, saying what we found in the book, and then asking if we were interpreting the book right.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

APG already responded to him. Your retort was unnecessary. He might have been over the top, but he has a point. I can't imagine an official getting on the court (especially having passed the test - even open book) that doesn't understand the 3-second rule. But say it happened. You, not understanding this rule, somehow pass the test without reading this rule, and end up on the court.

When I first started, the test to get my license required 80 correct answers out of 100. So I could be dead wrong about 20% of the game and still get licensed. It's easy to see how 3 seconds could be part of the 20% you didn't know.

I haven't had to take a basketball rules exam to maintain my license since 2000.

I do take a soccer exam every year, but there the passing score is just 75%.