Pushing defender away with ball?

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Rich

Yes, I would. It's not a nit I'm willing to pick. If A is holding onto the ball and uses the ball to displace the defender, to me it's no different than a player using his hand/arm to push off.

This seems clear to me as well. I don't see how you can look at it any other way.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Tic-Tock.

A1 dribbling at a decent rate of speed, stops dribble, loses his balance, sticks the ball out with 2 hands (without dragging his pivot foot) in reaction to losing his balance and the ball contacts B1 who stumbles backwards as a result.

So this is a PC foul?

Yes In this instance, the ball is effectively an extension of the hand.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Thumper68

I saw this in a 6th grade boy’s parochial league game last night. A1 gets the ball in high post. B1 has very tight legal guarding position, up tight on A1 almost touching torso to torso. B2 comes up behind and also is guarding A1. A1 takes the ball, places it in B1’s chest and pushes him away, attempts to dribble away and B2 promptly steals the ball and we are going the other way. As a 3rd year official I had not seen this yet and it happened so fast that I had no call, and B2 now has the ball. This seems to be a foul, but is it just a team control pushing foul, or is this a player control foul? I know that 4-7-2(d) states “The player with the ball may not push the torso of the guard to an advantage to pass, shoot, or dribble.”, but does it apply since A1 used the ball to push. Hind sight has me thinking that is was a player control foul, but I would like some input.

Thanks,

Those Catholics

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Nah, the first bloody nose will result in a Technical Foul, probably Flagrant.

Exactly my point. Where is the line?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Adam

So you're calling a pc foul for contact with the ball?

Adam, are you going to ignore the displacement just because the offensive player used the ball instead of his/her arm/hand?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Tic-Tock.

A1 dribbling at a decent rate of speed, stops dribble, loses his balance, sticks the ball out with 2 hands (without dragging his pivot foot) in reaction to losing his balance and the ball contacts B1 who stumbles backwards as a result.

So this is a PC foul?

Originally Posted by just another ref

Yes In this instance, the ball is effectively an extension of the hand.

I've heard that as a concept before. I don't see me calling a PC foul in this situation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Tic-Tock.

A1 dribbling at a decent rate of speed, stops dribble, loses his balance, sticks the ball out with 2 hands (without dragging his pivot foot) in reaction to losing his balance and the ball contacts B1 who stumbles backwards as a result.

So this is a PC foul?

Nope. I'm only calling a foul when a player is pushed with the ball when it is clear the offensive player was using it as an extension of their arms explicitly for the purpose of moving their opponent. Otherwise, it is nothing....I'm not treating it quite the same as other situations.

[APG]

Originally Posted by rwest

Adam, are you going to ignore the displacement just because the offensive player used the ball instead of his/her arm/hand?

I was understanding Adam's point to be whether this is a personal foul versus a technical foul...

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by APG

I think a strict reading would mean this is a technical foul, and I used to subscribe to the philosophy that this is a T or nothing.

If I were presented with this play though now, I'd go with the personal foul.

Well I had this somewhat related gem a few years ago...Flagrant or Intentional?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Nope. I'm only calling a foul when a player is pushed with the ball when it is clear the offensive player was using it as an extension of their arms explicitly for the purpose of moving their opponent. Otherwise, it is nothing....I'm not treating it quite the same as other situations.

I can live with that. But I'm thinking that if I see someone intentionally push a ball into someone with enough force to cause that person to fall back then I'll have an Unsporting T. Otherwise I would have nothing.

I want to say that years ago in a Men's Wreck League game I called a T on a player for intentionally hitting a shorter opponent on the top of the head with the ball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I've heard that as a concept before. I don't see me calling a PC foul in this situation.

Conceivably, possibly due to poor positioning, it might be difficult to see whether the actual contact took place with the ball, the bare hand, or both.
Displacement/advantage gained seems to be the important part, in my opinion.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I want to say that years ago in a Men's Wreck League game I called a T on a player for intentionally hitting a shorter opponent on the top of the head with the ball.

I had that exact thing in the link I just posted...girl's Freshman. I went intentional but flagrant T might've been better.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

Adam, are you going to ignore the displacement just because the offensive player used the ball instead of his/her arm/hand?

Keep reading:

Originally Posted by Adam

Yeah, I'd call it depending on the severity. I probably would have questioned myself later, but ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Had a short but somewhat spirited discussion on this subject several years ago involving now legendary forum members. push with ball

I love quoting great people, here's a good one from the thread:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While a live ball is being held by A-1 in his/her frontcourt:

1) A-1 intentionally throws the ball at B-1's head.

2) A-1, uses the ball to push B-1, to try to gain an advantage by creating some space between himself/herself and the defender, B-1.

What are the correct calls? Personal or technical ? Common, intentional, or flagrant ? Do the calls change if A-1 is an inbounder ?

This post never got answered. Is the microphone on?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While a live ball is being held by A-1 in his/her frontcourt:

1) A-1 intentionally throws the ball at B-1's head.

2) A-1, uses the ball to push B-1, to try to gain an advantage by creating some space between himself/herself and the defender, B-1.

What are the correct calls? Personal or technical ? Common, intentional, or flagrant ? Do the calls change if A-1 is an inbounder ?

Since you’re being persistent – and I’ve never been accused of acting on things quickly:

In play #1 the description pretty much tells you what to call. It’s at least an IF and quite possibly a flagrant. I don’t think going with a common foul in that case would be an option for me.

In play #2 I’d call a PC. A1 used the ball to create contact that put B1 at a disadvantage.

In either case, A1 being the thrower on an inbounds pass doesn’t make a difference in the call.