Pushing defender away with ball?

[Thumper68]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Yea, at first I didn't really have an answer, but the more I think about it, I would lean to a PC.

This was me on the court last night! ^

I think that if it had happened again I would have a foul. Most likely PC. I think that if the second defender wasn't there that he would have gained an advantage. The push moved B1 a step back, giving A1 enough room to start a dribble.

[Welpe]

I've seen it and have called it a PC before.

Conversely would we call a push on a defender for pushing the ball into A1, knocking him back?

[Camron Rust]

Ignore the steal for the sake of this dicussion...it is clouding the waters of the main point....can a player commit a foul with the ball as a tool or extension of their arms/hands.

I say yes.

The rule actually doesn't restrict the contact to only being body-to-body. It just says contact with an opponent that hinders.... That contact could very well be with the ball...and I'd call it as such if it were a purposeful action by the ball handler.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I've seen it and have called it a PC before.

Conversely would we call a push on a defender for pushing the ball into A1, knocking him back?

On the 2nd question, no. The defense has the right to try to knock the ball out of the offensive player's hands even if it knocks them over.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

On the 2nd question, no. The defense has the right to try to knock the ball out of the offensive player's hands even if it knocks them over.

Defender tries to knock ball out of offenses hands, only hits the ball and the force causes the offensive player to fall. Foul, travel, or nothing?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Thumper68

This was me on the court last night! ^

I think that if it had happened again I would have a foul. Most likely PC. I think that if the second defender wasn't there that he would have gained an advantage. The push moved B1 a step back, giving A1 enough room to start a dribble.

what other option would you consider?

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by Adam

So you're calling a pc foul for contact with the ball?

Absolutely.

We all agree that this HTBT play. But you can absolutely call a PC foul in this situation. I called one last year where the offensively used the ball to push his defender back 2 or 3 feet. He now had space to release his shot. I called it without hesitation.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Defender tries to knock ball out of offenses hands, only hits the ball and the force causes the offensive player to fall. Foul, travel, or nothing?

That's a good question. The defender has a right to contact the ball and if an offensive player holding the ball leaves it open enough for the defender to contact it and he falls down as a result, I have a travel. Hard to imagine a case where it would be a foul on the defender unless it involves some extra and likely unsporting behavior. I suppose a player could be holding the ball and a defender who is unable to knock it loose decides to just shove the ball into the player. HTBT situation but I've never seen that.

I actually had a play similar to the OP in the first game of the HS season this year. A1 goes up and over B1 for an offensive rebound. Not enough contact for a displacement foul but upon landing A1 takes the ball and gives a huge shove in the back to B1 to clear space and attempt a shot.

I had a foul but did give the push mechanic at the table when in fact I had a PC.

[just another ref]

Had a short but somewhat spirited discussion on this subject several years ago involving now legendary forum members.

push with ball

[APG]

I think a strict reading would mean this is a technical foul, and I used to subscribe to the philosophy that this is a T or nothing.

If I were presented with this play though now, I'd go with the personal foul.

[Thumper68]

Originally Posted by Adam

what other option would you consider?

On the court at the time I was trying to decide between PC and push (team control). The more I thought it out it seemed that a push (team control) was really PC. My initial thought was a PC foul, but my lower level of experience made me hesitate, the ball was stolen, and the moment was gone. Now I realize that my initial reaction was correct thanks to this discussion. If/when I see this again it will be a PC foul.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Thumper68

On the court at the time I was trying to decide between PC and push (team control). The more I thought it out it seemed that a push (team control) was really PC. My initial thought was a PC foul, but my lower level of experience made me hesitate, the ball was stolen, and the moment was gone. Now I realize that my initial reaction was correct thanks to this discussion. If/when I see this again it will be a PC foul.

I don't think it really matters. A player control foul, is a team control foul. Either way it was on the offense and no shoots would be given.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Thumper68

On the court at the time I was trying to decide between PC and push (team control). The more I thought it out it seemed that a push (team control) was really PC. My initial thought was a PC foul, but my lower level of experience made me hesitate, the ball was stolen, and the moment was gone. Now I realize that my initial reaction was correct thanks to this discussion. If/when I see this again it will be a PC foul.

Doesn't matter if you called team or player control in this situation...either way you aren't shooting free throws.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Depending on the severity, you aren't? Again, if I was a player that used every edge - and I did - I would leave a trail of defenders with bloody noses as a coasted to the basket. ...?

Nah, the first bloody nose will result in a Technical Foul, probably Flagrant.

[Raymond]

Tic-Tock.

A1 dribbling at a decent rate of speed, stops dribble, loses his balance, sticks the ball out with 2 hands (without dragging his pivot foot) in reaction to losing his balance and the ball contacts B1 who stumbles backwards as a result.

So this is a PC foul?