Flagrant or Intentional?

[Welpe]

Had a rather "interesting" play during the first quarter of a girl's freshman game yesterday.

I am working by myself for the first part of the game due to a scheduling SNAFU. Home team player is dribbling in her front court near the division line and is being closely guarded by a defender. Home team player picks up her dribble and looks for an open player to pass to. Defender is playing her close but doing so legally.

Finding no where to pass the ball and with my count up to "3", I watch the offensive player get an angry look on her face as she takes the ball from about her waist, brings it up and forcefully smacks the defender in the face with it. I have no doubt at all it was done intentionally.

I whistle the foul, have a quick debate with myself whether or not this was flagrant and decide to call it intentional. No argument from anyone and the fouled defensive player needs to have a sub come in to shoot her free throws.

I realize this is pretty much HTBT, but would anybody consider calling a flagrant foul in this situation? My justification for calling it intentional is that she used the ball to strike her opponent instead of say, her elbow. But she definitely did strike her opponent.

Thoughts?

[slow whistle]

Just out of curiosity did you go personal or technical?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Just out of curiosity did you go personal or technical?

I'm guessing he went personal, based on this part:

Originally Posted by Welpe

No argument from anyone and the fouled defensive player needs to have a sub come in to shoot her free throws.

As you describe it, Welpe, it seems 100% HTBT. I wouldn't have lost sleep over either choice.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm guessing he went personal, based on this part:



As you describe it, Welpe, it seems 100% HTBT. I wouldn't have lost sleep over either choice.

Is personal the correct choice? I understand there was contact between the ball and the girl's face, but is that the type of "contact" needed for a personal foul? Just wondering if non-contact/technical wouldn't have been the proper choice. Not that it makes a huge difference other than throw in spot, assuming the offender didn't do anything else naughty the remainder of the game.

As far as the play itself, I agree it is a HTBT and I think you are justified either way. I would tend to be a bit conservative and lean towards intentional without knowing anything else, but if this girl had shown a tendency towards excessive contact, etc prior to this occassion I would have no problem with you going flagrant.

[Adam]

It's a good question, the definition states it "involves illegal contact with an opponent...." Note that "contact" isn't necessarily defined as requiring body contact. I think it's the right choice for this play.

[tomegun]

I would like to preface this statement by saying I worked in Mississippi for three years and we were required to do both boys and girls (long night, double-header every time). Why is it that most of the strange situations discussed on this site involve a girls game? I'm not pointing fingers at the officials or the players, but it just seems like things like this happen with girls games more than boys games.

Anyway, I would think this is similar to an elbow that makes contact above the shoulders. If I'm not mistaken, I think some leagues (NBA) call this a flagrant automatically. If you think the girl did this intentionally I would be more apt to send her since she used an object - the only one possible in a basketball game - to strike a player.

One thing I always pregame before a girls game is their "instant on" behaviors. A lot of time, you can sense trouble brewing in a boys game and do something to control it. But many times girls just snap - if you hear the "B" word it is likely on after that. It seems like the OP was very attentive to this situation and I would just finish it off with an ejection. I would think about what could happen if the offending player stays versus ejection. How far would you allow this behavior to go before deciding enough is enough?

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I would like to preface this statement by saying I worked in Mississippi for three years and we were required to do both boys and girls (long night, double-header every time). Why is it that most of the strange situations discussed on this site involve a girls game? I'm not pointing fingers at the officials or the players, but it just seems like things like this happen with girls games more than boys games.?

This is a very good question and something I have noticed as well. To be honest and I'll probably get ripped for this, but whatever - I think it is an issue of basketball accumen. I think there is just not the general basketball IQ from top to bottom on the girls side that there is on the boys side. Sure there are many on the girls side who have more bball IQ than those on the boys side, but from the star player to the last girl on the bench it is not as consistent. I have seen it get better over the last 20 years as feeder programs, AAU, etc, have become more prevalent on the girls side, but is not on equal footing yet.


?[/QUOTE]Anyway, I would think this is similar to an elbow that makes contact above the shoulders. If I'm not mistaken, I think some leagues (NBA) call this a flagrant automatically. If you think the girl did this intentionally I would be more apt to send her since she used an object - the only one possible in a basketball game - to strike a player.

One thing I always pregame before a girls game is their "instant on" behaviors. A lot of time, you can sense trouble brewing in a boys game and do something to control it. But many times girls just snap - if you hear the "B" word it is likely on after that. It seems like the OP was very attentive to this situation and I would just finish it off with an ejection. I would think about what could happen if the offending player stays versus ejection. How far would you allow this behavior to go before deciding enough is enough?[/QUOTE]

Also agree with this assesssment of the girls game and the "instant on" behaviors- if you can figure out the "why" here let me know it would help me at home as well

As for the OP, does the reason for the action make any difference to you as far as flagrant v. intentional? We have case play 10.3.6.B which gives the example of the throw-in striking the opponent in the face, but it only says that officials need to be "aware", it doesn't prescribe the penalty. Do you have a different set of criteria for a player who throws the ball at an opponent's face in that situation vs. one who does it out of frustration as in the OP? I am honestly on the fence with this one, just thinking through the different scenarios where this could happen.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

I am honestly on the fence with this one, just thinking through the different scenarios where this could happen.

What: scholastic athletic contest
Who: 13-year-old girls
Possibilities:

1. More of the same. Another player can do the same/retaliate and remain in the game provided she doesn't already have 4 fouls. The nice guy on my left shoulder is saying this wouldn't happen while the little stinker on my right shoulder is saying someone could leave with a broken/bloody nose.
2. More of the same and less eligible players to play the game (they have to stay on the bench when ejected).
3. An ejection nips in in the bud.

By my calculations, ejecting the player gives you better odds of this not happening since you will eventually and likely get rid of the bad apple(s) if you eject for this behavior.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Had a rather "interesting" play during the first quarter of a girl's freshman game yesterday.

I am working by myself for the first part of the game due to a scheduling SNAFU. Home team player is dribbling in her front court near the division line and is being closely guarded by a defender. Home team player picks up her dribble and looks for an open player to pass to. Defender is playing her close but doing so legally.

Finding no where to pass the ball and with my count up to "3", I watch the offensive player get an angry look on her face as she takes the ball from about her waist, brings it up and forcefully smacks the defender in the face with it. I have no doubt at all it was done intentionally.

I whistle the foul, have a quick debate with myself whether or not this was flagrant and decide to call it intentional. No argument from anyone and the fouled defensive player needs to have a sub come in to shoot her free throws.

I realize this is pretty much HTBT, but would anybody consider calling a flagrant foul in this situation? My justification for calling it intentional is that she used the ball to strike her opponent instead of say, her elbow. But she definitely did strike her opponent.

Thoughts?

I agree it's a HTBT situation, but if as you describe it was clearly an intentional hit to the face with the ball I'd probably lean towards flagrant.

[Chess Ref]

[QUOTE=tomegun An ejection nips it in the bud.
[/QUOTE]


I've played my share of sports. I trust my perceptions when stuff is happening on an athletic field or court.

Player hits another player in the face with or without the ball,like in the OP,I will eject.

I like the nice guy comment. My experience is no good deed goes unpunished.

I aim to be all business out there.

It's not personal-its business.

[Welpe]

Thanks for the responses so far.

Yes, I did call this an intentional personal foul. The offensive player didn't throw the ball at the defender, she held it in her hands and clubbed her with it. As Snaqs said, I thought it fit into the category of "illegal contact".

Tomegun, good point about the instant on. This was still very early in the game, so I don't think there was too much to provoke her (maybe some past history I was not aware of). But I noticed the rest of the game, she was playing in a rather reckless manner, and not really playing with much control.

During another play in the second half, she committed a player control foul when she picked up her dribble, got frustrated and shoved the defender guarding her with one hand. I called a PC foul, probably should've called that one intentional too.

Calling the first one flagrant probably would've been the prudent move. Now I'm kind of annoyed with myself for not doing it.

Thanks everyone, please keep the comments coming.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Thanks for the responses so far.

Yes, I did call this an intentional personal foul. The offensive player didn't throw the ball at the defender, she held it in her hands and clubbed her with it. As Snaqs said, I thought it fit into the category of "illegal contact".

Tomegun, good point about the instant on. This was still very early in the game, so I don't think there was too much to provoke her (maybe some past history I was not aware of). But I noticed the rest of the game, she was playing in a rather reckless manner, and not really playing with much control.

Girls don't need a lot of time to flip the switch.

Originally Posted by Welpe

During another play in the second half, she committed a player control foul when she picked up her dribble, got frustrated and shoved the defender guarding her with one hand. I called a PC foul, probably should've called that one intentional too.

Calling the first one flagrant probably would've been the prudent move. Now I'm kind of annoyed with myself for not doing it.

You just made me frown and crinkle my brow. It sounds like you had a legit opportunity to get rid of a bad apple early on and you didn't do it.

My buddy has a saying that goes like this, "Kill em all before we get to camp because we don't have enough provisions to feed them!"

In other words, handle your business before they come back to kick you in the______.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Had a rather "interesting" play during the first quarter of a girl's freshman game yesterday.

I am working by myself for the first part of the game due to a scheduling SNAFU. Home team player is dribbling in her front court near the division line and is being closely guarded by a defender. Home team player picks up her dribble and looks for an open player to pass to. Defender is playing her close but doing so legally.

Finding no where to pass the ball and with my count up to "3", I watch the offensive player get an angry look on her face as she takes the ball from about her waist, brings it up and forcefully smacks the defender in the face with it. I have no doubt at all it was done intentionally.

I whistle the foul, have a quick debate with myself whether or not this was flagrant and decide to call it intentional. No argument from anyone and the fouled defensive player needs to have a sub come in to shoot her free throws.

I realize this is pretty much HTBT, but would anybody consider calling a flagrant foul in this situation? My justification for calling it intentional is that she used the ball to strike her opponent instead of say, her elbow. But she definitely did strike her opponent.

Thoughts?

You had a flagrant intentional personal foul.

MTD, Sr.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by tomegun

You just made me frown and crinkle my brow. It sounds like you had a legit opportunity to get rid of a bad apple early on and you didn't do it.

Sounds like you're probably right. But at least you're helping to make me a better official and arming me with the knowledge to properly take care of business in the future. It seems like such an obvious call now.

Thanks.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Sounds like you're probably right. But at least you're helping to make me a better official and arming me with the knowledge to properly take care of business in the future. It seems like such an obvious call now.

Thanks.

No problem. This is the kind of discussion that used to be handled at the local bar/restaurant, but everyone is so busy now.