Pushing defender away with ball?

[Adam]

So you're calling a pc foul for contact with the ball?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Adam

So you're calling a pc foul for contact with the ball?

Yes, I would. It's not a nit I'm willing to pick. If A is holding onto the ball and uses the ball to displace the defender, to me it's no different than a player using his hand/arm to push off.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Rich

Yes, I would. It's not a nit I'm willing to pick. If A is holding onto the ball and uses the ball to displace the defender, to me it's no different than a player using his hand/arm to push off.

This seems clear to me as well. I don't see how you can look at it any other way.

[maven]

Tom, if he gets an advantage from the contact, then it's a foul. Surely we agree about that.

It didn't seem that A1 got an advantage in the OP. If I'm wrong about that — which is a bit HTBT — then call the foul, but it's silly to quibble about judgment unless we have some video that could help settle it.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by maven

Tom, if he gets an advantage from the contact, then it's a foul. Surely we agree about that.

It didn't seem that A1 got an advantage in the OP. If I'm wrong about that — which is a bit HTBT — then call the foul, but it's silly to quibble about judgment unless we have some video that could help settle it.

I agree that it is a play we would need to see, but what if the second defender wasn't there to take the ball? Is the act itself something you want to be a part of your game? Even with the steal by B2 I would say something to A1 about this at least.

[HawkeyeCubP]

I want to lean toward this being a PC foul as well. If we can penalize A with a technical foul for using the ball illegally (against the spirit of the game/rules) in an instance, shouldn't we be able to for using the ball to gain an illegal advantage in this situation?

[OKREF]

Yea, at first I didn't really have an answer, but the more I think about it, I would lean to a PC.

[Thumper68]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Yea, at first I didn't really have an answer, but the more I think about it, I would lean to a PC.

This was me on the court last night! ^

I think that if it had happened again I would have a foul. Most likely PC. I think that if the second defender wasn't there that he would have gained an advantage. The push moved B1 a step back, giving A1 enough room to start a dribble.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Thumper68

This was me on the court last night! ^

I think that if it had happened again I would have a foul. Most likely PC. I think that if the second defender wasn't there that he would have gained an advantage. The push moved B1 a step back, giving A1 enough room to start a dribble.

what other option would you consider?

[Camron Rust]

Ignore the steal for the sake of this dicussion...it is clouding the waters of the main point....can a player commit a foul with the ball as a tool or extension of their arms/hands.

I say yes.

The rule actually doesn't restrict the contact to only being body-to-body. It just says contact with an opponent that hinders.... That contact could very well be with the ball...and I'd call it as such if it were a purposeful action by the ball handler.

[Welpe]

I've seen it and have called it a PC before.

Conversely would we call a push on a defender for pushing the ball into A1, knocking him back?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I've seen it and have called it a PC before.

Conversely would we call a push on a defender for pushing the ball into A1, knocking him back?

On the 2nd question, no. The defense has the right to try to knock the ball out of the offensive player's hands even if it knocks them over.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

On the 2nd question, no. The defense has the right to try to knock the ball out of the offensive player's hands even if it knocks them over.

Defender tries to knock ball out of offenses hands, only hits the ball and the force causes the offensive player to fall. Foul, travel, or nothing?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Adam

So you're calling a pc foul for contact with the ball?

Depending on the severity, you aren't? Again, if I was a player that used every edge - and I did - I would leave a trail of defenders with bloody noses as a coasted to the basket. Hmmm, that may cause someone to get upset and want to fight me for popping them in the nose with the ball. Would they have a reason for being upset?

Where do you draw the line?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Depending on the severity, you aren't? Again, if I was a player that used every edge - and I did - I would leave a trail of defenders with bloody noses as a coasted to the basket. ...?

Nah, the first bloody nose will result in a Technical Foul, probably Flagrant.