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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:16am
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Pushing defender away with ball?

I saw this in a 6th grade boys parochial league game last night. A1 gets the ball in high post. B1 has very tight legal guarding position, up tight on A1 almost touching torso to torso. B2 comes up behind and also is guarding A1. A1 takes the ball, places it in B1s chest and pushes him away, attempts to dribble away and B2 promptly steals the ball and we are going the other way. As a 3rd year official I had not seen this yet and it happened so fast that I had no call, and B2 now has the ball. This seems to be a foul, but is it just a team control pushing foul, or is this a player control foul? I know that 4-7-2(d) states The player with the ball may not push the torso of the guard to an advantage to pass, shoot, or dribble., but does it apply since A1 used the ball to push. Hind sight has me thinking that is was a player control foul, but I would like some input.

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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:42am
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:46am
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Me too. What advantage did A1 gain? Contact that yields no advantage — and in this instance disadvantaged the player — is generally not a foul.
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:19am
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Sounds like a PC to me--A1 cleared space to attempt to make a move--pushing B1 away may hinder him in filling the lane for a fast break after the steal.
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:45am
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While there was no direct body contact, it can't be fair that B1 is displaced nonetheless.

The immediate turnover negates a whistle, but without it, I think you have to at least consider calling a foul.

I'd like to see a case play that describes using the ball to clear space to move.
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:49am
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Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
While there was no direct body contact, it can't be fair that B1 is displaced nonetheless.

The immediate turnover negates a whistle, but without it, I think you have to at least consider calling a foul.

I'd like to see a case play that describes using the ball to clear space to move.
What if A1 were driving down the lane and stuck the ball out and B1 fell down from the contact with the ball?
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:51am
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
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Originally Posted by maven View Post
Me too. What advantage did A1 gain? Contact that yields no advantage and in this instance disadvantaged the player is generally not a foul.
Hmm, I guess neither one of you understand this type of play. Are you saying no foul because B2 took the ball? If I am B1 and I know that someone can use the ball like this and you wouldn't call it, I would use that to my advantage.

What if A1 does this again and instead of taking the ball cleanly B1 hacks A1 across the arm as he/she takes the ball?
What if A1 puts the ball in B1's face next time instead of his/her chest?
What if a slight push with the ball like this is used to create space to shoot?

Even a timely word of caution to A1 would help this situation.

If I was a player and knew this was allowable, I would push the envelope until you called a foul on me then I would ask you what your standard is for calling this a foul. Can I push the defender away a foot, two feet, one step, two steps, I can only do it if I get the ball stolen, only if the defender creates a jump ball?
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:06am
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So you're calling a pc foul for contact with the ball?
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:12am
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So you're calling a pc foul for contact with the ball?
Yes, I would. It's not a nit I'm willing to pick. If A is holding onto the ball and uses the ball to displace the defender, to me it's no different than a player using his hand/arm to push off.
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:13am
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Tom, if he gets an advantage from the contact, then it's a foul. Surely we agree about that.

It didn't seem that A1 got an advantage in the OP. If I'm wrong about that — which is a bit HTBT — then call the foul, but it's silly to quibble about judgment unless we have some video that could help settle it.
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:15am
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
So you're calling a pc foul for contact with the ball?
Depending on the severity, you aren't? Again, if I was a player that used every edge - and I did - I would leave a trail of defenders with bloody noses as a coasted to the basket. Hmmm, that may cause someone to get upset and want to fight me for popping them in the nose with the ball. Would they have a reason for being upset?

Where do you draw the line?
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:21am
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Originally Posted by maven View Post
Tom, if he gets an advantage from the contact, then it's a foul. Surely we agree about that.

It didn't seem that A1 got an advantage in the OP. If I'm wrong about that which is a bit HTBT then call the foul, but it's silly to quibble about judgment unless we have some video that could help settle it.
I agree that it is a play we would need to see, but what if the second defender wasn't there to take the ball? Is the act itself something you want to be a part of your game? Even with the steal by B2 I would say something to A1 about this at least.
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:42am
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Yeah, I'd call it depending on the severity. I probably would have questioned myself later, but ...
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:45am
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I want to lean toward this being a PC foul as well. If we can penalize A with a technical foul for using the ball illegally (against the spirit of the game/rules) in an instance, shouldn't we be able to for using the ball to gain an illegal advantage in this situation?
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Old Tue Dec 11, 2012, 12:12pm
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Yea, at first I didn't really have an answer, but the more I think about it, I would lean to a PC.
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