Cannot Sub for Guy who Dunks in Pregame?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Smitty

This is high school we're talking about. And more importantly, in this scenario, middle school. Far too often I see coaches doing the opposite - allowing kids to behave badly and keeping them in the game because winning is far more important than teaching. In this case, I applaud the coach for teaching that lesson. We can agree to disagree.

Again, where does my way prevent the coach from dealing with the kid?

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Again, where does my way prevent the coach from dealing with the kid?

If the coach is pissed at his kid and wants him on the bench immediately, I am inclined to let him. That's my perspective on it. I don't believe I ever said your way was wrong. I am just defending my way.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Years and years ago I was officiating a boys' H.S. game. A1 dunked the ball during the 30 minute pre-game period. B-HC wanted to have B6 replace B1 to shoot the TF free throws. Over the streneous objections of A-HC I let B6 replace B1. I told A-HC that while the game, by rule, begins with the TF free throws, the rule that allows any player(s) in the game or any legal substitute(s) to shoot the free throws prevails because for all intents and purposes the game actually started when A1 dunked a dead ball during the pre-game warmups.

Later that season during a telephone conversation with Dick Schindler about an altogether different situation, I mentioned the previous play and A-HC's objection to how I handled the situation and Dick used the exact same words that I used to with A-HC in stating that I had handled the situation correctly. The conversation took place over 20 years ago. Somethings never change.

Happy Turkey Day!! Go Buckeyes!! Beat that team from that state up north!!

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Go Buckeyes.

Just exactly where are they going? I thought that they were under some type of post season restriction? Wait? That's the UCONN mens basketball program. Sorry. Wait? I'm now being told that both the Ohio State football program, and the UCONN mens basketball program, are under post season restrictions. Our kids never went to class. What's your excuse?

[OKREF]

Instead of forgetting about class, they forgot about paying for tattoos.

[BktBallRef]

How about this? The pre-game time has expired. A-HC has his team in front of his bench or possibly sitting on the bench, coaching his team. A6 goes reports to the table and returns to his bench just like he would do during a timeout.

B1 shoots the two FTs.

A2, A3, A4, A5, and A6 enter the floor for B's throw-in.

As far as Smitty is concerned, A6 entered the game before the first FT.

As far as BNR is concerned, A6 entered after the game after the first FT.

BktBallRef calls the assignor the next day, scratches Smitty and BNR because they can't get along and he lives happily ever after.

And no, I couldn't care less if Team A is sitting on the bench while B1 shoots.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just exactly where are they going? I thought that they were under some type of post season restriction? Wait? That's the UCONN mens basketball program. Sorry. Wait? I'm now being told that both the Ohio State football program, and the UCONN mens basketball program, are under post season restrictions. Our kids never went to class. What's your excuse?

And the UNC Football Tar Heels!

[Freddy]

For any who'd like to use the question for association discussion, here's the issue and the results of most our discussion here in an unrefined quiz format that could take up a couple of hours of fruitful (?) meeting time, if desired....
THIS IS A TOOL TO TAILOR AS DESIRED FOR YOUR OWN USE AND CIRCUMSTANCES

A1, a designated starter, grabs the rim with 5 minutes on showing on the pregame clock. One properly observant member of your crew sees it and the merited technical foul is issued. Coach A, upset with A1, wants to bench him to deprive him of being a starter for this game. He tells you he would like to replace A6 as a designated starter instead of A1.
Which of the following responses are true?
A. He may replace A1 with A6 as a designated starter at that time, but a team technical will be assessed for changing the scorebook after the 10 minute mark.
B. He can't bench A1 before the jump ball to begin the game. As a designated starter, he must start the game.
C. He may bring A6 in as a sub for A1 after the ball is at the disposal of the B player who will be shooting the technical free throws to begin the game.
D. It doesn't really matter--just do what seems best for the sake of the spirit of the rules.
E. A1 deserves to be punished for causing the coach to lose his coaching box. He may bench A1 and designate any other non-starter in the book to be a starter with no penalty.
F. A6 may replace A1 as a designated starter only after the second technical foul shot before the team B throw in at the division line.
G. A1 may not play in this game.
H. A6 can replace A1 as a designated starter before the pre-game clock runs out, but it will be at the expense of a team technical foul for team A.
I. Since the game does not start until the inbounds pass is made by team B from the division line, the coach may send the desired sub to report to substitute for A1 at that time.
J. Before the game clock even starts after the beginning of the game, team B could be ahead by a score of 2-0.
K. A1, designated starter, must be on the floor when the game begins.
L. A1, designated starter, cannot be on the floor when the game begins.
M. He cannot sub anyone for A1 until after the clock has been properly started.

[Adam]

Rule book, C. However, if the coach pushes back with any sound logic (most coaches would accept that requirement), I'll let the sub in sooner.

Some of these don't make sense as an answer to this question.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Adam

Some of these don't make sense as an answer to this question.

Granted. There are a bunch of outright false selections added for the sake of discussion.

[OKREF]

A, C, H, J.

A and H are basically the same.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Freddy

For any who'd like to use the question for association discussion, here's the issue and the results of most our discussion here in an unrefined quiz format that could take up a couple of hours of fruitful (?) meeting time, if desired....
THIS IS A TOOL TO TAILOR AS DESIRED FOR YOUR OWN USE AND CIRCUMSTANCES

A1, a designated starter, grabs the rim with 5 minutes on showing on the pregame clock. One properly observant member of your crew sees it and the merited technical foul is issued. Coach A, upset with A1, wants to bench him to deprive him of being a starter for this game. He tells you he would like to replace A6 as a designated starter instead of A1.
Which of the following responses are true?
A. He may replace A1 with A6 as a designated starter at that time, but a team technical will be assessed for changing the scorebook after the 10 minute mark.
B. He can't bench A1 before the jump ball to begin the game. As a designated starter, he must start the game.
C. He may bring A6 in as a sub for A1 after the ball is at the disposal of the B player who will be shooting the technical free throws to begin the game.
D. It doesn't really matter--just do what seems best for the sake of the spirit of the rules.
E. A1 deserves to be punished for causing the coach to lose his coaching box. He may bench A1 and designate any other non-starter in the book to be a starter with no penalty.
F. A6 may replace A1 as a designated starter only after the second technical foul shot before the team B throw in at the division line.
G. A1 may not play in this game.
H. A6 can replace A1 as a designated starter before the pre-game clock runs out, but it will be at the expense of a team technical foul for team A.
I. Since the game does not start until the inbounds pass is made by team B from the division line, the coach may send the desired sub to report to substitute for A1 at that time.
J. Before the game clock even starts after the beginning of the game, team B could be ahead by a score of 2-0.
K. A1, designated starter, must be on the floor when the game begins.
L. A1, designated starter, cannot be on the floor when the game begins.
M. He cannot sub anyone for A1 until after the clock has been properly started.

The correct answer is none of the above. The correct answer is that A-HC can substitute A6 in for A1 before the TF free throws are shot for the same reason that B6 can be substituted into the game for B1 to shoot the TF free throws: That the game started when A1 commited a TF by dunking a dead ball. Read my previous post in this thread.

MTD, Sr.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The correct answer is none of the above. The correct answer is that A-HC can substitute A6 in for A1 before the TF free throws are shot for the same reason that B6 can be substituted into the game for B1 to shoot the TF free throws: That the game started when A1 commited a TF by dunking a dead ball. Read my previous post in this thread.

MTD, Sr.

I respectfully disagree. 8.3. The ball becomes live to start the game when placed at free throwers disposal. (straight from the NFHS app). It seems to me that it is pretty clear that "by the book", a legal substitution would have to wait until after the first free throw, with the exception of team A player to shoot the technical.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The correct answer is none of the above. The correct answer is that A-HC can substitute A6 in for A1 before the TF free throws are shot for the same reason that B6 can be substituted into the game for B1 to shoot the TF free throws: That the game started when A1 commited a TF by dunking a dead ball. Read my previous post in this thread.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, the exception that allows A6 to enter and shoot is just that, an exception that applies only to team A for a shooter. Since the first opportunity to sub is after the first free throw, that's when the sub may enter, by rule.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The correct answer is none of the above. The correct answer is that A-HC can substitute A6 in for A1 before the TF free throws are shot for the same reason that B6 can be substituted into the game for B1 to shoot the TF free throws: That the game started when A1 commited a TF by dunking a dead ball. Read my previous post in this thread.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, with all due respect, a convo you had with someone on the phone 20 years ago means absolutely nothing. We have to go by the rules, case plays and interps before us. None of them support what you suggest. In fact, they say just the opposite. Sorry.