Pregame Dunks

[just another ref]

Fifteen minutes prior to the game two team members of team A dunk with both the coach and official as witnesses. When coach submits his squad list, he deliberately omits the names of the violators. Official assesses a technical foul for each act of dunking as team fouls and charges the coach with two indirect technical fouls. This ruling is correct.*


We kicked this question around last year, and failed to reach an agreement on the correct answer. Well, the question was on our study guide again, and appeared on the test this time. Our discussion at our meeting last week gave me a different perspective on this question. Last year here the question seemed to center around whether the coach could declare by omission: "These guys are not team members." Some high profile, knowledgeable, forum members said that he could.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Smart coaching move. It seems to me that the coach is saying that those kids are not team members for this contest. There should be no technical fouls charged. The rule says that it applies to all "team members."

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

When the players dunked at the 15 minute mark, the calling official by rule was supposed to inform the players and their head coach that they each just got a "T". That's when you find out whether they were actually team members or not. If the coach says they are, give 'em 'T"s, If the coach says they aren't, run 'em off the floor.

Well, as we read the question again, we find that they are team members. It's a given. Is the point of the question how the technical fouls should be charged? If these guys names are not in the book, the fouls obviously cannot be charged to them as individual players. Therefore they are charged only as team fouls, and also as indirects to the head coach. I put true for the question, but with a limited amount of confidence. The only other alternative I see is that the official says these guys must appear in the book, whether the coach likes it or not. I see no rule which gives an official the authority to do this, with the exception of the ever-present 2-3.

[chartrusepengui]

Were the two offenders in uniform and doing warm-ups with the rest of the team? If so - I believe I would rule them to be team members. If not they should not have been in uniform nor allowed (by coaches/officials) to warm-up with the rest of the team. I think I'd tell the coach if he hadn't submitted his entire roster by the 10 min mark I'd also have to hit him with a T for adding them later.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Were the two offenders in uniform and doing warm-ups with the rest of the team? If so - I believe I would rule them to be team members. If not they should not have been in uniform nor allowed (by coaches/officials) to warm-up with the rest of the team. I think I'd tell the coach if he hadn't submitted his entire roster by the 10 min mark I'd also have to hit him with a T for adding them later.

This situation is most likely to occur in a JV game; for a variety of reasons. That said, it's not uncommon to see a few varsity players warming up with the JV kids, especially on road games with smaller schools.

[chartrusepengui]

I agree about the JV but in our area if those players are on varsity they are also on JV and playing a couple quarters each way. Still team members. Also, if that's the case the uniforms would be different - at least in my area.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

I agree about the JV but in our area if those players are on varsity they are also on JV and playing a couple quarters each way. Still team members. Also, if that's the case the uniforms would be different - at least in my area.

Not always the case, though. I've seen a lot of kids warm up with the JV, then they don't show up at all during the game, not even on the bench. And while the uniforms may or may not be different, you might not know if they've all got the same warmup suit on.

[just another ref]

So is it true or false?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So is it true or false?

I don't think there's an official answer yet.

[OHBBREF]

ART. 4 . . . A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

I would say that this definition would be helpful in your determination of how to proceed.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

ART. 4 . . . A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

I would say that this definition would be helpful in your determination of how to proceed.

But wouldn't a good working definition of "eligible to become a player" basically be is on the roster the coach submits before the 10 minute mark? I don't see how you could determine this eligibility in any other way.

[asdf]

What's so hard about this? Use some common sense here guys........

Just because he's not in the book does not mean that he's ineligble to play. It will just cost him when/if the coach decides to enter him into the game.

Assess the Technicals, count them as Team Fouls, and the indirects on the coach. If they try to enter the offenders into the game, have the scorer update the book to include the personal fouls that they have accumulated.

After the game, notify your assignor, the school's AD and/or principal, and the state association of the coach's actions.

They'll deal with it.

[bob jenkins]

I'm 95% certain that if this question were posed to the NFHS, they'd say, "It is not the intent of the rule to allow the coach to circumvent the penalty in this way. Enforce the T's, including the indirects on the coach."

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by asdf

What's so hard about this? Use some common sense here guys........

Just because he's not in the book does not mean that he's ineligble to play. It will just cost him when/if the coach decides to enter him into the game.

Assess the Technicals, count them as Team Fouls, and the indirects on the coach. If they try to enter the offenders into the game, have the scorer update the book to include the personal fouls that they have accumulated.

After the game, notify your assignor, the school's AD and/or principal, and the state association of the coach's actions.

They'll deal with it.

Don't forget to assess the team T for adding the players to the book.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Don't forget to assess the team T for adding the players to the book.

That's correct....

If the coach proposes this when everything first happens, advise him that IF the players are needed during the game, there will be an additional penalty for adding them to the book. He might just change his mind.

Then again.... maybe he won't....

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

But wouldn't a good working definition of "eligible to become a player" basically be is on the roster the coach submits before the 10 minute mark? I don't see how you could determine this eligibility in any other way.

Player B12 is dressed and warming up with the team B, dunks the ball at the 12 minute mark, and is noticed by the officials.
Player B12 is suspended from participation in this contest for an ejection in the previous game and is therfore not elegible to participate in this contest?


or

Player A11 plays for the JV and Varsity. Is dressed and warming up A11 dunks the ball at the 12 minute mark, and is noticed by the officials.
At the 11 minute mark the JV coach informs the Varsity coach that A11 played too many quarters per state rules and is inelegible to participate in this contest?

[asdf]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Player B12 is dressed and warming up with the team B, dunks the ball at the 12 minute mark, and is noticed by the officials.
Player B12 is suspended from participation in this contest for an ejection in the previous game and is therfore not elegible to participate in this contest?


or

Player A11 plays for the JV and Varsity. Is dressed and warming up A11 dunks the ball at the 12 minute mark, and is noticed by the officials.
At the 11 minute mark the JV coach informs the Varsity coach that A11 played too many quarters per state rules and is inelegible to participate in this contest?

Whack him.

Report the proceeding to the proper administrative body/bodies.