What dunks?

[just another ref]

Fifteen minutes prior to the game two team members of team A dunk with both the coach and official as witnesses. When coach submits his squad list, he deliberately omits the names of the violators. Official assesses a technical foul for each act of dunking as team fouls and charges the coach with two indirect technical fouls. This ruling is correct.*






*It doesn't say whether or not this happened in Kansas.

[Nevadaref]

Smart coaching move. It seems to me that the coach is saying that those kids are not team members for this contest. There should be no technical fouls charged. The rule says that it applies to all "team members."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Smart coaching move. It seems to me that the coach is saying that those kids are not team members for this contest. There should be no technical fouls charged. The rule says that it applies to all "team members."

But, the definition of team member does not include being on the list. These same guys could sit on the bench and enter the game at some point, at the expense of a technical foul.

... it's a warning and a "T" in Kansas.

[jer166]

10-3 A Player shall not:

10-3-4 Grasp either basket during the time of the officials' jurisdiction, dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff ...

If they aren't on the official roster then they are not players in the game. If the coach decides to leave them off it is not our job to decide why they aren't on the roster.

Sounds like the coach out foxed the officials & they decided to apply their own brand of justice.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But, the definition of team member does not include being on the list. These same guys could sit on the bench and enter the game at some point, at the expense of a technical foul.

Maybe the kids are academically ineligible. Perhaps they are serving a suspension imposed by the school. There is no way to know. What we do know is that the coach is being very smart. If the coach doesn't list them on the team roster and his position is that they are not part of the team for this game, then there should not be a penalty.

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Smart coaching move. It seems to me that the coach is saying that those kids are not team members for this contest. There should be no technical fouls charged. The rule says that it applies to all "team members."

1st dead ball throw in for Team B, Coach A requests to talk to an Official to inform he needs to add 2 players to the scorebook. These are the 2 kids that dunked. You add the players and 1 Administrative "T' is applied to Team A. No direct or indirect 'T' to Coach A. B was going to get the ball anyway, so team A does not loose a possession. Brilliant! Only 2 Free throws instead of 4.

What do ya think?

[Y2Koach]

this happened at a summer league game a few years ago. One of my players (he was only 5'7") is dunking during warmups.

The ref comes to me and says "wow, he is really getting up there". I ask the ref "could you please call the tech?" Ref replies "it's only summer league coach." I respond "if youre calling the game with regular high school rules, please call the T. I'd rather he learn to not dunk now than during the season."

Ref says "fine" and calls the technical foul. As he is administering the FTs, I start yelling at his partner asking "what the heck is that call???" etc, just carrying on. Partner comes over to the bench and tells me to calm down, and explains that according to the rules, dunking during warmups is a technical foul. I look over to my player seated on the bench and say "I told you! Now you owe your team 4 points"

Refs seemed to enjoy that. Im just glad I didnt get a T cuz then I wouldnt have been able to use my "now you owe your team __ points" line...

BTW, player never got another T while playing for me.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Maybe the kids are academically ineligible. Perhaps they are serving a suspension imposed by the school. There is no way to know. What we do know is that the coach is being very smart. If the coach doesn't list them on the team roster and his position is that they are not part of the team for this game, then there should not be a penalty.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

If these guys are in uniform and participating in warmups with the team, they sound like team members to me.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jer166

10-3 A Player shall not:

10-3-4 Grasp either basket during the time of the officials' jurisdiction, dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff ...

If they aren't on the official roster then they are not players in the game. If the coach decides to leave them off it is not our job to decide why they aren't on the roster.

Sounds like the coach out foxed the officials & they decided to apply their own brand of justice.

Jer, check the final sentence of 10-3-4: "This item applies to all team members."

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by jer166

10-3 A Player shall not:

10-3-4 Grasp either basket during the time of the officials' jurisdiction, dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff ...

If they aren't on the official roster then they are not players in the game. If the coach decides to leave them off it is not our job to decide why they aren't on the roster.

Sounds like the coach out foxed the officials & they decided to apply their own brand of justice.

Maybe they changed this one too, but in my 06/07 book 10-3-4 ends with the words "this item applies to all team members" so it is definitely not just the players (players are in the game).

When does someone become a team member? When his name is submitted to the official scorer which must happen prior to the 10 minute mark (3-2-1) but *could* happen sooner. The rule addresses lots of things that cannot be changed aftert the 10 minute mark but nothing is said about removing a name at any point.

Soooo.... I'm thinking that if a coach has a person's name on the list of players he submits to the table - or even intends to submit to the table - then that person is a team member. I do not believe it is within the spirit of the rules for a coach to avoid penalty by removing names from the roster.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

If these guys are in uniform and participating in warmups with the team, they sound like team members to me.

So if two varsity players were doing this prior to the jv game would you consider them team members and charge Ts?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

1st dead ball throw in for Team B, Coach A requests to talk to an Official to inform he needs to add 2 players to the scorebook. These are the 2 kids that dunked. You add the players and 1 Administrative "T' is applied to Team A. No direct or indirect 'T' to Coach A. B was going to get the ball anyway, so team A does not loose a possession. Brilliant! Only 2 Free throws instead of 4.

What do ya think?

I think that I would also penalize the pregame dunks, if the names were added to the scorebook at any point in the game. I would also hit the head coach with a direct T for an unsporting act.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So if two varsity players were doing this prior to the jv game would you consider them team members and charge Ts?

Could you hold over the T's to the Varsity game following JV??

[jer166]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Jer, check the final sentence of 10-3-4: "This item applies to all team members."

yep, I missed that.