Block/Charge RA Play: Off Rebound

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well unlike your friend, the rules do cover this under 10-6-1.

Rule says, "A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s) or by bending his or her body into other than a normal position, nor use any rough tactics."

Not sure what I said was not supported by rule. I would think "throwing a shoulder" is the exact same thing as extending a shoulder to create space or to go through an opponent.

And it does not say that this is special to an player without the ball. I also just used a description, not trying to suggest like someone else that my words were word perfect in the rulebook.

Peace

Nothing about this play fits what you describe. The shooter didn't extend anything or impede the progress of anyone. He simply took a step towards the basket and went up to shoot where the two players collide.

Extending a shoulder is about leaning to the side to put the shoulder outside your frame into the path of an opponent. It has nothing to do with a player's shoulder going along with your torso on a drive in a basically vertical orientation. It's not like he put it down and rammed it into the defender's chest as if he were a torpedo to blast him out of the way.

And by your standard (like a fake), you can't call this anyway since extending isn't defined in the rulebook or casebook.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Nothing about this play fits what you describe. The shooter didn't extend anything or impede the progress of anyone. He simply took a step towards the basket and went up to shoot where the two players collide.

Extending a shoulder is about leaning to the side to put the shoulder outside your frame into the path of an opponent. It has nothing to do with a player's shoulder going along with your torso on a drive in a basically vertical orientation. It's not like he put it down and rammed it into the defender's chest as if he were a torpedo to blast him out of the way.

And by your standard (like a fake), you can't call this anyway since extending isn't defined in the rulebook or casebook.

If you do not think the ball handler extended their shoulder outside of their frame and their verticality, then that is your judgment. I just disagree with that assessment and it appears a lot of others disagree with your assessment as well. I can take solace in that fact.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

...
And by your standard (like a fake), you can't call this anyway since extending isn't defined in the rulebook or casebook.

No, it only means he can't tell you your definition of extending is incorrect.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

...

Extending a shoulder is about leaning to the side to put the shoulder outside your frame into the path of an opponent. It has nothing to do with a player's shoulder going along with your torso on a drive in a basically vertical orientation. It's not like he put it down and rammed it into the defender's chest as if he were a torpedo to blast him out of the way.
...

Actually, that's exactly what he did before jumping.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Actually, that's exactly what he did before jumping.

He did? What "path" was the defender going to? The other basket????? I don't think he was setting a screen.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

He did? What "path" was the defender going to? The other basket????? I don't think he was setting a screen.

Let me make sure I understand this right. If the defender is going in any direction, the offensive player is allowed to push, use shoulder or arms to keep a defender off of them? All of that because the defender is not in LGP?

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Let me make sure I understand this right. If the defender is going in any direction, the offensive player is allowed to push, use shoulder or arms to keep a defender off of them? All of that because the defender is not in LGP?

Peace

No. This shooter didn't do any of that. He was in a normal position moving to a shot. Don't try to make a new situation out of this one just to be right.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No. This shooter didn't do any of that. He was in a normal position moving to a shot. Don't try to make a new situation out of this one just to be right.

I am not trying to be right, just trying to understand your reasoning. The shooter all of a sudden went forward in an unusual manner to get contact and to shoot. That to me is a foul on the offensive player all day. Look, I am following the rule as stated which says it is illegal to do all those things I mentioned, including throwing a shoulder into their opponent (or extending their shoulder as the rulebook actually uses that language) to create space in an effort to get an open shot. And it seems that you are saying the only thing that matters is the defender is not in LGP and any contact that takes place involves them.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not trying to be right, just trying to understand your reasoning. The shooter all of a sudden went forward in an unusual manner to get contact and to shoot.

If you insist. That was a pretty basic an typical play to me...nothing at all unusual about it. He simply turned away from one side to the other to go up for a shot and found a defender coming at him and they collided.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That to me is a foul on the offensive player all day. Look, I am following the rule as stated which says it is illegal to do all those things I mentioned, including throwing a shoulder into their opponent (or extending their shoulder as the rulebook actually uses that language) to create space in an effort to get an open shot. And it seems that you are saying the only thing that matters is the defender is not in LGP and any contact that takes place involves them.

Peace

If he threw his shoulder into the opponent fine, but he didn't. He made a normal move and the defender was moving in without LGP and there was normal contact...block. The offensive player may not have been perpendicular to the floor but I really doubt you call charges on all shooters who are less than 100% vertical while a defender moves into them.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you insist. That was a pretty basic an typical play to me...nothing at all unusual about it. He simply turned away from one side to the other to go up for a shot and found a defender coming at him and they collided.

I was not saying it was an unusual play. I said that his actions were unusual or not about just going to the basket to shoot. Players that shoot the basketball in that matter unless they are trying to create some space first to get an open shot. He was right under the basket, why would he go forward instead of just jump up to put the ball back into the basket? I see that often and often call it a foul on the ball handler.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If he threw his shoulder into the opponent fine, but he didn't. He made a normal move and the defender was moving in without LGP and there was normal contact...block. The offensive player may not have been perpendicular to the floor but I really doubt you call charges on all shooters who are less than 100% vertical while a defender moves into them.

You can keep saying he didn't, but most people here seem to think he did. And the only reason the official in this tape called otherwise was because of the position of the defender in the RA. If it was just a block, he does not need point to the RA to sell the call. As I have said before, this is why we get paid the big bucks and we all have to decide why we make calls. You certainly do not have to agree with my position at all (like that is unusual), I still will call this play the way I see the rules and this is a PC foul all day and twice on Sunday.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

He did? What "path" was the defender going to? The other basket????? I don't think he was setting a screen.

I think the better question is what did A1 do with his left shoulder before jumping to take the shot. It definitely wasn't "inside his frame" as you are claiming you saw. Or maybe you are just not being honest with yourself?

[just another ref]

It is a close, tough call to say that the defender had become stationary and obtained LGP before the contact, but I think that he did. It is not a close call to say that the shooter exploded into the chest of this defender.

PC foul

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It is a close, tough call to say that the defender had become stationary and obtained LGP before the contact, but I think that he did. It is not a close call to say that the shooter exploded into the chest of this defender.

PC foul

Is the term "exploded into the chest of the defender" used in the rulebook word for word?

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

He did? What "path" was the defender going to? The other basket????? I don't think he was setting a screen.

I still don't agree that B1 was moving towards A1 at the time of impact, HOWEVA (in my Stephen A. Smith persona), after viewing the play some more you could argue that B1 was not in his vertical plane.

I think this play is 50/50 enough that either a PC or Block could be lived with, but the official erred in pointing to the RA. On that basis it was not a correct call.

[BillyMac]

Wow. We've got the play on video to watch over, and over, again. We've got several seemingly competent officials, as much as I can tell from these Forum threads, and posts, over the years. We've got a few officials posting who are very familiar with the rulebook, and, yet, seem to be able to apply those rules to practical situations on the court, as much as I can tell from these Forum threads, and posts, over the years. And we've got a play that we all confidently call several times a week in our games during the season. After all of that, we can't agree on a call here. I don't know what that tells you, but it tells me that officiating basketball is not a very easy endeavor to undertake. Let's all pat ourselves on the back, and ask for a raise.