Ejection and aftermath

[Rich]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Personally, I like how the official handled it in the OP. Forfeiting a game, IMO, is an absolute last measure.

It's unfair, perhaps, but I consider forfeiting a game to be a CLM (career-limiting move). The scrutiny after the fact should be 100% on the coach, not on you as the official.

It would take quite a bit more than a minute (maybe even more than 5 minutes) before I'd forfeit a game. I'd even probably ask game management to have the coach removed (even with the help of law enforcement) before I'd forfeit the game. If the coach doesn't leave and then *gets arrested*, who's going to be seen as the unreasonable party?

The exception to this would be if game management wasn't cooperative. And I could see that happening, too. If that's the case, eventually you may have to forfeit the game. Again, this is something that reflects poorly on the school, not on you. You've provided the rope and in ample length...

[rockchalk jhawk]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's unfair, perhaps, but I consider forfeiting a game to be a CLM (career-limiting move). The scrutiny after the fact should be 100% on the coach, not on you as the official.

It would take quite a bit more than a minute (maybe even more than 5 minutes) before I'd forfeit a game. I'd even probably ask game management to have the coach removed (even with the help of law enforcement) before I'd forfeit the game. If the coach doesn't leave and then *gets arrested*, who's going to be seen as the unreasonable party?

The exception to this would be if game management wasn't cooperative. And I could see that happening, too. If that's the case, eventually you may have to forfeit the game. Again, this is something that reflects poorly on the school, not on you. You've provided the rope and in ample length...

This. All of this. And what Brad said earlier also.

Those that can't successfully blend the letter of the law with a common sense approach are not going to be successful in this business. As Brad pointed out, you may forfeit a game, but as other folks have mentioned it should be a last resort. If you allow game management and police to handle the problem, the s***storm falls back on the coach, not you, yet you have still followed procedure. If everybody else is uncooperative, you still have the rule in your back pocket as a last resort.

It's the same as warning a kid whose behavior is bordering unacceptable and who is walking the line of a technical foul. You can still give the kid a chance to correct his behavior by talking to him and warning him before giving him the T. I don't believe it's actually in the book anywhere that you can talk to a player and warn him before T'ing him, but you're blending the letter of the law with common sense.

Besides, if you forfeit a game you're going to catch hell over the fact that this game is for the kids, you decided the game for them, yada yada yada. Nobody wants to deal with that when it's avoidable.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by JerryLundagard

JerryLundagard

Isn't Jerry Lundagard the guy from Fargo?

[billyu2]

Sportsmanship in general and the conduct of coaches and bench personnel in particular has been a major point of emphasis over the last several years. My feeling on this is that state associations do not want to be embarrassed (especially during their tournament games) by coaches who make unsportsmanlike spectacles of themselves. In addition, I'm going to go out on the limb perhaps, by saying it's very possible state associations would prefer that this particular coach in the OP or any coach not be allowed by tournament officials to set a precedent for other coaches and for the game of high school basketball that it is okay, when ejected, to defiantly stand your ground and wait heroically for both the game management and the police (after a 4-5 minute standoff) to finally be escorted from the gym.
Just my opinion-I could be wrong.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Isn't Jerry Lundagard the guy from Fargo?

Ya. Could be. Just spelled a little different, don't ya know!

[asdf]

I look at it this way....

Forfeits are to be used only when the resumption of the game cannot be executed for obvious reasons. Safety of the competitors, fans and officials and refusal of a team to return to play are the two that immediately come to mind.

You had Law Enforcement involved. Let them do their thing and get things rolling afterwards.

Penalizing the kids more than they already have been penalized (with the T's) isn't in order here.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Sportsmanship in general and the conduct of coaches and bench personnel in particular has been a major point of emphasis over the last several years. My feeling on this is that state associations do not want to be embarrassed (especially during their tournament games) by coaches who make unsportsmanlike spectacles of themselves. In addition, I'm going to go out on the limb perhaps, by saying it's very possible state associations would prefer that this particular coach in the OP or any coach not be allowed by tournament officials to set a precedent for other coaches and for the game of high school basketball that it is okay, when ejected, to defiantly stand your ground and wait heroically for both the game management and the police (after a 4-5 minute standoff) to finally be escorted from the gym.
Just my opinion-I could be wrong.

I agree with Billy.

I would think the state association wouldn't be too happy knowing a game was stopped for five minutes - or more - so a coach who'd already been ejected could be led away by law enforcement...after he'd already argued with game management. I'd feel bad stopping the game but not that bad given the situation.

If the coach is acting up to the point that the crew feels the need to call in the cavalry it's already gone too far. We all want to be fair to the kids but giving a guy five minutes to leave after he's been ejected for two technical fouls isn't fair to the kids either. Playoff game or not, I'd like to think if an official stopped a game then explained to circumstances to their assignor/association that they would receive support.

[ga314ref]

Originally Posted by JerryLundagard

I think it was about a 10 point game at the time. There was a little over three minutes left in the game. So at the time the game was still in doubt.

While I would hate to not finish a game in that situation, I kind of feel that is up to the coach.

... it's obvious he's out of control, so put him out of the picture because he's shown he's unreasonable enough to not care how his behavior affects his team's chances. For me, at this point, it's game management's responsibility to get him out of there, and quick. Fortunately, we have LEOs at our games, and they have no issue with making sure anyone who needs to leave, leaves.

However, if game management were unwilling or unable to handle this, I'd suspend the game, write my report, and let the state decide the next steps.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Ya. Could be. Just spelled a little different, don't ya know!

Awesome! Thanks for the laugh!

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by ga314ref

... it's obvious he's out of control, so put him out of the picture because he's shown he's unreasonable enough to not care how his behavior affects his team's chances. For me, at this point, it's game management's responsibility to get him out of there, and quick. Fortunately, we have LEOs at our games, and they have no issue with making sure anyone who needs to leave, leaves.

However, if game management were unwilling or unable to handle this, I'd suspend the game, write my report, and let the state decide the next steps.

That was another point which popped into my head. If the coach has picked up two direct Ts it's safe to say he hasn't been a solid citizen during the game. He's already taken up the crew's time and the players' time with his behavior.

I still don't see a need to bother game management. I was involved in a game - non-playoff - like this a few years ago and this is what my partner said to the coach:

1. "Coach, you need to leave the court."
2. "Coach, you need to leave the court."
3. "Coach, we're not restarting the game until you leave the court."
4. "Coach, if you don't leave the court we're going to call the game."

It all took about two minutes and the coach left.

One other consideration: if it's a District game wouldn't there be a representative from the coach's school in the gym? I ask because they would see how this person is representing their school and might be inclined to back up the officials if the coach got out of control.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Ya. Could be. Just spelled a little different, don't ya know!

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Awesome! Thanks for the laugh!

Truth be told, I have relatives in Linton, ND (near Bismark).

PS - and some of them do talk like that.....it's true, it's true!

[Mark Padgett]

Here in the sovereign state of Treehugger, if anyone doesn't leave a sports venue when directed to do so by a person in authority, they can be cited for trespass. This means that if I get someone (spectator, coach, player, etc.) like that, I can call the cops to come and take them away. This is a state law that was passed a few years ago.

I hope I never have to do that - not kidding.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Here in the sovereign state of Treehugger, if anyone doesn't leave a sports venue when directed to do so by a person in authority, they can be cited for trespass.

So, if your partner is the referee, and he wants you removed, then it's, "Bye. Bye. Mark Padgett"? Man. Your partners must love this law.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So, if your partner is the referee, and he wants you removed, then it's, "Bye. Bye. Mark Padgett"? Man. Your partners must love this law.

The only guy that would do that is the guy that wants overtime every game.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So, if your partner is the referee, and he wants you removed, then it's, "Bye. Bye. Mark Padgett"? Man. Your partners must love this law.

Not if the game took place in my city (where I do a lot of local kids rec league games) because all city employees (especially the cops) know not to tick me off.