Cause for ejection?

[officialtony]

HS Varsity game. I am PU. Hotly contested game which is close until 5th inning. Visiting team is now down by 4 runs and his best hitter comes to the plate. I call two close strikes on pitches not swung at. Coach calls time and meets his batter 10 feet from the plate. As he is walking away I hear " bu*****t calls ". I ignore but he is on my list. Bottom of same inning, home team attempts double steal - R1 and R2 moving together. F2 throw ( horrible I might add ) gets by F5 and F7 retrieves it. R1 on his way to the plate. I am set for the play and the throw from F7 comes in. F2 tags R1 on the shoulders as R1 has already hit the plate with his forward foot ( slid ). I call safe ( I am confident with my call and decision ),I look up and the Visitors coach is standing next to the ondeck batter 5 feet from the plate screaming about the call. He had to be in live ball territory as the play unfolded. I wasn't aware of his presence, following the ball and the resulting play. He tells his catcher to ask for time, which I grant after I make sure R2 is standing on 3rd and no other play can occur. He proceeds to tell me there is no way safe is correct. No vulgarity or abuse other than the call was wrong. I tell him I made the call, the runner beat the tag and he must return to the bench and I don't want to see him or hear from him the rest of the game - that I have heard enough. He mumbles something about three ring circus as he returned to the dugout. OK fire away and let me hear the responses. What would you have done and at what point?



BTW, in retrospect, I should have tossed him the minute I saw him standing over the concluded play during live ball situation. I know that now. Just looking for feedback.

[Edited by officialtony on May 5th, 2005 at 02:31 PM]

[ChrisSportsFan]

since both you and his batter and probably the catcher heard his language about the strik calls, I would have probably told him right there "that's enough coach".

regarding the tag at home; "the tag was high and base runner slid under, he was safe, now hurry back to the dugout cuz were playin ball out here coach".

[mcrowder]

Failing your best moment for the ejection, you missed another, when you'd warned him that you'd had enough and he mumbled about the circus. Make no mistake that he knew he was saying that loud enough for you to hear. That comment was directed at YOU, after a warning. Buh bye, coach.

[DG]

Originally posted by officialtony
HS Varsity game. I am PU. Hotly contested game which is close until 5th inning. Visiting team is now down by 4 runs and his best hitter comes to the plate. I call two close strikes on pitches not swung at. Coach calls time and meets his batter 10 feet from the plate. As he is walking away I hear " bu*****t calls ". I ignore but he is on my list. Bottom of same inning, home team attempts double steal - R1 and R2 moving together. F2 throw ( horrible I might add ) gets by F5 and F7 retrieves it. R1 on his way to the plate. I am set for the play and the throw from F7 comes in. F2 tags R1 on the shoulders as R1 has already hit the plate with his forward foot ( slid ). I call safe ( I am confident with my call and decision ),I look up and the Visitors coach is standing next to the ondeck batter 5 feet from the plate screaming about the call. He had to be in live ball territory as the play unfolded. I wasn't aware of his presence, following the ball and the resulting play. He tells his catcher to ask for time, which I grant after I make sure R2 is standing on 3rd and no other play can occur. He proceeds to tell me there is no way safe is correct. No vulgarity or abuse other than the call was wrong. I tell him I made the call, the runner beat the tag and he must return to the bench and I don't want to see him or hear from him the rest of the game - that I have heard enough. He mumbles something about three ring circus as he returned to the dugout. OK fire away and let me hear the responses. What would you have done and at what point?



BTW, in retrospect, I should have tossed him the minute I saw him standing over the concluded play during live ball situation. I know that now. Just looking for feedback.

[Edited by officialtony on May 5th, 2005 at 02:31 PM]

He's gone when I hear bu***** calls". One, it's profanity, two the comment is disrepectful to the umpire, and make no mistake, the comment was directed at you. This will be an ejection, not a restriction to the bench, so he will not be around for the second issue to come up.

But for sake of discussion, let's say first event did not happen but second event did. I have a standing rule, any coach who RUNS onto the field to argue a call is gone. If he is running towards me he is gone before he gets to me.

[officialtony]

Thanks.
I knew it. Even after I walked away on the play at home when I sent him to the dugout, I knew it. He was quiet after that and I missed my chance to toss him. Maybe my shell is too thick. I should be quicker on the trigger.
Thanks again for the input.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by officialtony
HS Varsity game. I am PU. Hotly contested game which is close until 5th inning. Visiting team is now down by 4 runs and his best hitter comes to the plate. I call two close strikes on pitches not swung at. Coach calls time and meets his batter 10 feet from the plate. As he is walking away I hear " bu*****t calls ". I ignore but he is on my list. Bottom of same inning, home team attempts double steal - R1 and R2 moving together. F2 throw ( horrible I might add ) gets by F5 and F7 retrieves it. R1 on his way to the plate. I am set for the play and the throw from F7 comes in. F2 tags R1 on the shoulders as R1 has already hit the plate with his forward foot ( slid ). I call safe ( I am confident with my call and decision ),I look up and the Visitors coach is standing next to the ondeck batter 5 feet from the plate screaming about the call. He had to be in live ball territory as the play unfolded. I wasn't aware of his presence, following the ball and the resulting play. He tells his catcher to ask for time, which I grant after I make sure R2 is standing on 3rd and no other play can occur. He proceeds to tell me there is no way safe is correct. No vulgarity or abuse other than the call was wrong. I tell him I made the call, the runner beat the tag and he must return to the bench and I don't want to see him or hear from him the rest of the game - that I have heard enough. He mumbles something about three ring circus as he returned to the dugout. OK fire away and let me hear the responses. What would you have done and at what point?



BTW, in retrospect, I should have tossed him the minute I saw him standing over the concluded play during live ball situation. I know that now. Just looking for feedback.

[Edited by officialtony on May 5th, 2005 at 02:31 PM]

Well Tony, you asked for a response and I know it is a little different, but that is good when one is trying to formulate approaches in dealing with officiating techniques.

I for one, DO NOT walk on that field with a "hollier than thou attitude". I encourage conversation at the pre-game but, I request that it be handled after a time out is called. When it is not, I still handle it professionally.

I am extremely relaxed and confident in my officiating and when a couple of nasty words happen to pass by my ear drums, I let them pass, if not directed to me or personalized. You said you ignored the " bu*****t calls " comments, but put him on your list. For what purpose? Retribution? Put yourself above that and forget about making lists and carrying grudges because it just might end up getting you scratched from other lists. Which you may or may not care about.

When the coach came out, and I agree it may have been uninvited, you had a couple of choices: 1. Throw him out right there. 2. Treat him like a child and remind him about your "don't come out here rule, without my permission", and then throw him out for not being benovolent to you and all your rules. 3. Acknowledge his presence and let him talk like you did, but then after there was no vulgarity or abuse, why didn't you ask him what he saw? After he was done talking , explain why you called the runner safe and then state, "thats how I saw it, and that is my call". Is there anything else? Thank you. What was the purpose of saying "you must return to the bench and I don't want to see or hear from you again the rest of the game? Did you feel that you had to let him know that you where in charge of a game that you were already in charge of?

It is a lot easier to find reasons to toss people than keeping them in the game. Giving commands, making up your own set of rules and showing off your power, to me, is a sure sign of "lacks maturity and confidence". Being calm, cool, collective, personable and having the abilty to send the message non-verbally, that "you will leave on my terms because I am truly in charge here", is a sure sign of "maturiy and ooozes with confidence".

Just MY opinion. Hope it helps.

[officialtony]

jicecone,
thanks for the well worded and well thought out response.
I would like to think I do not impart a holier than thou attitude at my games. I am usually low key and try not to be the focus of any call or play. I am very good at " not hearing " comments that I know are directed at me by fans, competitors, or coaches - unless profanity is used ( loudly enough that I know others heard it ).
The list I put him on was " if he is abusive or obscene, he is gone " list. Kind of putting him on notice in my mind.
I did fail in something that you stated which I have used in the past. The " what did YOU see coach? " line. I love that approach because it does allow the coach to express himself AND let him know that I care about his opinion and I am willing to hear it. I am disappointed in myself that I didn't use that. Don't know why I didn't. I think shock at seeing him there in a live ball situation.
I was hoping that by telling him that I didn't want to see him or hear from him that he would get the message that if I did see him or hear him, he would be ejected. I probably didn't convey that well if you didn't percieve it either. Those skills need work.
I did ( and usually do ) feel like I was calm and collected when this occured. I didn't yell or finger point or express anything in a violent or " anxious " manner. I actually heard several fans say " what did he say to him? " as the coach walked away, so I don't feel like I embarrased him or ridiculed him in front of anyone - which is never my intent. I left him his dignity and felt like I retained mine.
But your input is invaluable and I appreciate it. You have given me several areas to work on to be sure I project the kind of professionalism all coaches and competitors deserve and expect.

By the way, my partner also expressd some of the same ideas you did. So I know I did not come across the way I wanted to.

Thanks for the input.

[Edited by officialtony on May 6th, 2005 at 10:20 AM]

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by officialtony


As he is walking away I hear " bu*****t calls ". I ignore but he is on my list.

Did Everyone hear it?

What I mean is this. If you watched last night's Celtics / Pacers game Paul Pierce got ejected because he left the official no choice. He got fouled and threw and elbow which is an automatic Technical Foul and since it was his second he was gone from the game.

ok what does this have to do with baseball. Generally speaking if only you, the batter and F2 heard it, leave it alone. If EVERONE heard it, then the player forced your hand and he get's Ej'd.

Why! - To keep control in the game, becasue if EVERONE hears it and you do nothing what are going to do the next time.

I do not put anyone on a list but I do subscribe to the SEND A MESSAGE theory which is another thread all in it's entirety. Assuming no one heard the profanity, this player will GET a message and either learn from it or have a nice day.

I call safe ( I am confident with my call and decision ),I look up and the Visitors coach is standing next to the ondeck batter 5 feet from the plate screaming about the call.

Coach has no business being in Live ball territory. It's one thing for a coach to ask for time, it's another for him to simply leave the dugout and come screaming at you about a call. Since the coach uttered no profanity, I would restrict him to the dugout. In NFHS rules we can restrict a coach to the bench area.

Side Note: Where was your partner during all of this? If there is a play at the plate and I am BU and see the coach start to come out, I will say "Skip stay in the dugout until play is over" to aid my partner.

[officialtony]

Peter,
I was pretty sure that only myself, the batter, and maybe the catcher heard it. I played it off like I didn't hear it, hoping anyone else who may have heard it would think I did not. I didn't acknowledge by body language in any way that I heard it.

As far as my partner, he was at third in case F7 went to third on his throw for a play there. R2 was halfway to third when the play at the plate evolved ( my partner told me this later ), which is why my partner was late in getting there on my behalf. He said he was as shocked as I was when he looked up and saw the coach near the plate so quickly. Had no time to intervene, which he said he felt he shouldn't unless it escalated. That could be another thread.

Anyway, thanks for the input.

[DG]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
Originally posted by officialtony

Did Everyone hear it?

Generally speaking if only you, the batter and F2 heard it, leave it alone. If EVERONE heard it, then the player forced your hand and he get's Ej'd.

Why! - To keep control in the game, becasue if EVERONE hears it and you do nothing what are going to do the next time.

The way I read this, the coach was the one who uttered the words - "Coach calls time and meets his batter 10 feet from the plate. As he is walking away I hear " bu*****t calls ". " If the batter and the catcher heard these words and you don't eject the coach what message are you sending to these players, and what will they tell their team mates about what happened?

[jicecone]

Originally posted by DG

The way I read this, the coach was the one who uttered the words - "Coach calls time and meets his batter 10 feet from the plate. As he is walking away I hear " bu*****t calls ". " If the batter and the catcher heard these words and you don't eject the coach what message are you sending to these players, and what will they tell their team mates about what happened?

Who gives a rats a** what they players tell their team mates. Put your rabbit ears back under your hat and officiate.

[GarthB]

"Who gives a rats a** what they players tell their team mates. Put your rabbit ears back under your hat and officiate. "

This is a "somtimes" policy.

I was BU on a game in which F1 was having problems at the low end. He kept throwing mid calf pitches and wanted them to be strikes. After walking two batters, he called for time and F6 went to the mound. As I started to back away to my spot at the cut out, I heard F1 say to F6 "F@#%ing N!@@er".

Since my parnter was the only Black man on the field, I tossed F1's sorry a$$ with no regard for whom might have heard him.

[officialtony]

GB,
I am with you 100% on this one.
GONE!
If his coach asks why, I would tell the coach to ask his pitcher to repeat what he said.
You are right. My Deaf ears would have to be a sometimes rule.

[Rich]

Originally posted by jicecone

Who gives a rats a** what they players tell their team mates. Put your rabbit ears back under your hat and officiate.

Rabbit ears refer to the stands. If you think I'm going to turn my ears off to participants (especially youth participants) just to make my life easier, you're crazy.