Ejection and aftermath

[JerryLundagard]

I heard about a situation at my game tonight and wanted to get some input on it.

District Tournament game at neutral site. One of the coaches gets two technicals fouls and is ejected. He tells the officials he is not going to leave the court.

The official after being told by the coach won’t leave the gym goes to Game Management to get the coach to leave. The coach and the site manager have a heated exchange and he still refuses to leave the gym. Game Management gets a Police Officer who finally gets the coach off the floor and in the hallway behind the gym. The whole process took four or five minutes.

My thoughts are why involve Game Management; this is a situation that is definitely covered in the rule book. The rule book clearly spells out what happens if coach fails to comply with the penalty for a technical foul, forfeit. Why would we dump this in Game Management’s lap? Tell the coach that if he doesn’t leave the gym his team will forfeit the game. Have the clock operator start the timer and let the coach know he has 60 seconds to leave. Ball is in his court.

Am I over simplifying things?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JerryLundagard

=My thoughts are why involve Game Management; this is a situation that is definitely covered in the rule book. The rule book clearly spells out what happens if coach fails to comply with the penalty for a technical foul, forfeit. Why would we dump this in Game Management’s lap? Tell the coach that if he doesn’t leave the gym his team will forfeit the game. Have the clock operator start the timer and let the coach know he has 60 seconds to leave. Ball is in his court.

Am I over simplifying things?

You do not want to end a playoff game that way if you can avoid it. There is nothing in the rulebook that says how long we wait and 5 minutes is not a long time if you think about it. I have no problem doing everything you can to remove the coach and that would go in my report so that it is possible that the governing body would take action. But you do not want to just forfeit the game because the coach is a fool and hurt the kids if you can avoid it. You might have more problems if you forfeit the game instead of just waiting.

Peace

[JerryLundagard]

Totally agree that this is not the way I want to end the game. However it is the coach that has made that decision, not me.

The penalty is not a secret. Two direct techical fouls are you are disqualified. Why do I need to jump through hoops for the coach that wants to act like a fool. I am not the one penalizing the kids, he is.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JerryLundagard

Totally agree that this is not the way I want to end the game. However it is the coach that has made that decision, not me.

The penalty is not a secret. Two direct techical fouls are you are disqualified. Why do I need to jump through hoops for the coach that wants to act like a fool. I am not the one penalizing the kids, he is.

I'm with you. What was the game situation when this happened?

[JerryLundagard]

I think it was about a 10 point game at the time. There was a little over three minutes left in the game. So at the time the game was still in doubt.

While I would hate to not finish a game in that situation, I kind of feel that is up to the coach.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JerryLundagard

While I would hate to not finish a game in that situation, I kind of feel that is up to the coach.

You did not answer my question. Are you going to forfeit the game on the spot because the coach said they are not leaving?

Peace

[ga314ref]

Originally Posted by JerryLundagard

I think it was about a 10 point game at the time. There was a little over three minutes left in the game. So at the time the game was still in doubt.

While I would hate to not finish a game in that situation, I kind of feel that is up to the coach.

... it's obvious he's out of control, so put him out of the picture because he's shown he's unreasonable enough to not care how his behavior affects his team's chances. For me, at this point, it's game management's responsibility to get him out of there, and quick. Fortunately, we have LEOs at our games, and they have no issue with making sure anyone who needs to leave, leaves.

However, if game management were unwilling or unable to handle this, I'd suspend the game, write my report, and let the state decide the next steps.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JerryLundagard

Totally agree that this is not the way I want to end the game. However it is the coach that has made that decision, not me.

The penalty is not a secret. Two direct techical fouls are you are disqualified. Why do I need to jump through hoops for the coach that wants to act like a fool. I am not the one penalizing the kids, he is.

I understand where you are coming from, but are you just going to forfeit the game because a coach tells you they are not leaving and then without hesitation forfeit the game? Give them a chance to leave that is all I am saying. At the very least tell them you do have the right to forfeit the game. But I would not just do this just because a coach made a threat. If GM can help, use them. What is the harm? Because your stance on the rules does not give a specific time limit or how you accomplish this. And your state, area or conference might have a method of policy to handle these as well. To say that there a rule is making the situation very simplistic IMO. I am just saying be cautious before you pull that trigger. Once you pull the trigger, you cannot pull it back and the powers that be might have an opinion about not giving them at least 5 minutes to solve the problem. I was in a situation in another sport and my partner did the same. The sports administrator said he made the decision too quickly. So someone with a little more power or in a decision making process might have another opinion. Five minutes is not a major problem. If you said 10 minutes than that is another story.

Peace

[JerryLundagard]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I understand where you are coming from, but are you just going to forfeit the game because a coach tells you they are not leaving and then without hesitation forfeit the game? Give them a chance to leave that is all I am saying. At the very least tell them you do have the right to forfeit the game. But I would not just do this just because a coach made a threat. If GM can help, use them. What is the harm? Because your stance on the rules does not give a specific time limit or how you accomplish this. And your state, area or conference might have a method of policy to handle these as well. To say that there a rule is making the situation very simplistic IMO. I am just saying be cautious before you pull that trigger. Once you pull the trigger, you cannot pull it back and the powers that be might have an opinion about not giving them at least 5 minutes to solve the problem. I was in a situation in another sport and my partner did the same. The sports administrator said he made the decision too quickly. So someone with a little more power or in a decision making process might have another opinion. Five minutes is not a major problem. If you said 10 minutes than that is another story.

Peace

Valid points, I dont think anyone wants to be the guy that forfeited the game. And if in that situation, I am not sure I would have handled it any differently.

It just makes me wonder, the responsibility for the coaches behavior lies with the coach. He chose to behave in such a manner. I dont think his actions can be defended. If the game is forfeited it is because of him. He is in the wrong. Why do the officials need to bend over backwards to accomodate someone that is clearly in the wrong.

And I know that someone will bring up the kids. Why doesnt the coach take into account the kids when it his behavior that is causing the problem.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You did not answer my question. Are you going to forfeit the game on the spot because the coach said they are not leaving?

Peace

He did answer, before you even asked....

Originally Posted by JerryLundagard

I heard about a situation at my game tonight and wanted to get some input on it.

District Tournament game at neutral site. One of the coaches gets two technicals fouls and is ejected. He tells the officials he is not going to leave the court.

The official after being told by the coach won’t leave the gym goes to Game Management to get the coach to leave. The coach and the site manager have a heated exchange and he still refuses to leave the gym. Game Management gets a Police Officer who finally gets the coach off the floor and in the hallway behind the gym. The whole process took four or five minutes.

My thoughts are why involve Game Management; this is a situation that is definitely covered in the rule book. The rule book clearly spells out what happens if coach fails to comply with the penalty for a technical foul, forfeit. Why would we dump this in Game Management’s lap? Tell the coach that if he doesn’t leave the gym his team will forfeit the game. Have the clock operator start the timer and let the coach know he has 60 seconds to leave. Ball is in his court.

Am I over simplifying things?

[just another ref]

Putting 60 seconds on the clock for this is really a courtesy. If he has a "heated exchange" with the site manager, and is still there afterward, all bets are off.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

He did answer, before you even asked....

I did see what he said, but I do not think he was clear how long it would take. After all he said 5 minutes was basically too long.

Peace

[APG]

Personally, I like how the official handled it in the OP. Forfeiting a game, IMO, is an absolute last measure.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Personally, I like how the official handled it in the OP. Forfeiting a game, IMO, is an absolute last measure.

It's unfair, perhaps, but I consider forfeiting a game to be a CLM (career-limiting move). The scrutiny after the fact should be 100% on the coach, not on you as the official.

It would take quite a bit more than a minute (maybe even more than 5 minutes) before I'd forfeit a game. I'd even probably ask game management to have the coach removed (even with the help of law enforcement) before I'd forfeit the game. If the coach doesn't leave and then *gets arrested*, who's going to be seen as the unreasonable party?

The exception to this would be if game management wasn't cooperative. And I could see that happening, too. If that's the case, eventually you may have to forfeit the game. Again, this is something that reflects poorly on the school, not on you. You've provided the rope and in ample length...

[rockchalk jhawk]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's unfair, perhaps, but I consider forfeiting a game to be a CLM (career-limiting move). The scrutiny after the fact should be 100% on the coach, not on you as the official.

It would take quite a bit more than a minute (maybe even more than 5 minutes) before I'd forfeit a game. I'd even probably ask game management to have the coach removed (even with the help of law enforcement) before I'd forfeit the game. If the coach doesn't leave and then *gets arrested*, who's going to be seen as the unreasonable party?

The exception to this would be if game management wasn't cooperative. And I could see that happening, too. If that's the case, eventually you may have to forfeit the game. Again, this is something that reflects poorly on the school, not on you. You've provided the rope and in ample length...

This. All of this. And what Brad said earlier also.

Those that can't successfully blend the letter of the law with a common sense approach are not going to be successful in this business. As Brad pointed out, you may forfeit a game, but as other folks have mentioned it should be a last resort. If you allow game management and police to handle the problem, the s***storm falls back on the coach, not you, yet you have still followed procedure. If everybody else is uncooperative, you still have the rule in your back pocket as a last resort.

It's the same as warning a kid whose behavior is bordering unacceptable and who is walking the line of a technical foul. You can still give the kid a chance to correct his behavior by talking to him and warning him before giving him the T. I don't believe it's actually in the book anywhere that you can talk to a player and warn him before T'ing him, but you're blending the letter of the law with common sense.

Besides, if you forfeit a game you're going to catch hell over the fact that this game is for the kids, you decided the game for them, yada yada yada. Nobody wants to deal with that when it's avoidable.