Passing ball to self

[MiamiWadeCounty]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Legal.



Traveling



Case book 4.44.3 D

Well, yes. The case book clearly explains it, but not the rules book.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by MiamiWadeCounty

...
What rule would A1 violate if A1 tosses the ball up and then runs to catch it before the ball touches the floor? I know this case is illegal, but I do not know where in the rules book says that it's illegal. Some people say that it's traveling. Others say that it's an illegal dribble.

Originally Posted by MiamiWadeCounty

Well, yes. The case book clearly explains it, but not the rules book.

It violated rule 4-44-3a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

However if A1 never established a pivot foot the rule doesn't cover that as a traveling violation. So it would have to be an illegal dribble. However I can't find in the rule book or case book anything that refers to it as an illegal dribble.

And the case play cited refers you to rule 9-4 which in turn refers you to rule 4-44.

[MiamiWadeCounty]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It violated rule 4-44-3a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

I get it now. I was totally disregarding the fact that the pivot foot may not be return back to the floor if the pass hasn't touch another player. The problem was that I thought traveling can only occur when a player is holding the ball.

However if A1 never established a pivot foot the rule doesn't cover that as a traveling violation. So it would have to be an illegal dribble. However I can't find in the rule book or case book anything that refers to it as an illegal dribble.

4.44.3 SITUATION B: A1 receives the ball with both feet off the floor and he/she lands simultaneously on both feet without establishing a pivot foot. A1 then jumps off both feet in an attempt to try for goal, but realizing the shot may be blocked, A1 drops the ball to the floor and dribbles. RULING: A1 has traveled as one foot must be considered to be the pivot and must be on the floor when the ball is released to start a dribble. The fact that no pivot foot had been established does not alter this ruling.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by MiamiWadeCounty

I get it now. I was totally disregarding the fact that the pivot foot may not be return back to the floor if the pass hasn't touch another player. The problem was that I thought traveling can only occur when a player is holding the ball.

I have no idea what that means. Your pivot foot has nothing to do with when or whther another player touches the ball.

You are correct that a player cannot travel unless he is holding the ball, with one exception.

4.44.3 SITUATION B:

A1 receives the ball with both feet off the floor and he/she lands simultaneously on both feet without establishing a pivot foot. A1 then jumps off both feet in an attempt to try for goal, but realizing the shot may be blocked, A1 drops the ball to the floor and dribbles. RULING: A1 has traveled as one foot must be considered to be the pivot and must be on the floor when the ball is released to start a dribble. The fact that no pivot foot had been established does not alter this ruling.

The case play has nothing to do with the play you originally posted.

[MiamiWadeCounty]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I have no idea what that means.

Yea I know. I posted that on impulse.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It violated rule 4-44-3a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

That rule simply does not apply to the original post.

This rule covers a player who jumps and returns to the floor before he releases the ball.

The original play had the player throwing the ball, running and touching the ball before it hit the floor. That's a completely different scenario.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That rule simply does not apply to the original post.

This rule covers a player who jumps and returns to the floor before he releases the ball.

The original play had the player throwing the ball, running and touching the ball before it hit the floor. That's a completely different scenario.

I know what the OP asked. In the literal sense it means A1 lifted his pivot and returned it to the floor before passing or shooting the ball, which is exactly what 4-44-3a says. 4-44-3b is what addresses a player who jumps. Everyone is telling Wade it's an illegal dribble but no one has posted a rule showing it to be an illegal dribble. 4-44-1 most definitely doesn't tell anybody it's an illegal dribble nor does any part of 9-5.

Struckoff (sp??) may be an idiot but complaining about her doesn't help as far as citing a current rule or case play for this scenario.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I know what the OP asked. In the literal sense it means A1 lifted his pivot and returned it to the floor before passing or shooting the ball, which is exactly what 4-44-3a says. 4-44-3b is what addresses a player who jumps. Everyone is telling Wade it's an illegal dribble but no one has posted a rule showing it to be an illegal dribble. 4-44-1 most definitely doesn't tell anybody it's an illegal dribble nor does any part of 9-5.

Struckoff (sp??) may be an idiot but complaining about her doesn't help as far as citing a current rule or case play for this scenario.

#1, Who said Struckoff was an idiot?

#2, as for the rules, 4-15-1 & 2 are the pertinent rules as it describes the action. Since the release of the ball is not a pass, shot or fumble, that leaves a dribble. When the player releases it and touches it again before it touches the floor, it's an illegal dribble.

#3, finally, the last rule to apply is 4-44.
Traveling (running with the ball) is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while HOLDING the ball.

You cannot travel without HOLDING the ball except as in 4.44.5B which is an identified circumvent of the rules.

In 4-44-3a, the player lifts AND returns the pivot to the floor while still HOLDING the ball.

In 4-44-3b, the player jumps AND returns to the floor while still HOLDING the ball.

You cannot travel without HOLDING the ball.

[NCHSAA]

Just call it, and let the signal be secondary to the call on this issue.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

#2, as for the rules, 4-15-1 & 2 are the pertinent rules as it describes the action. Since the release of the ball is not a pass, shot or fumble, that leaves a dribble. When the player releases it and touches it again before it touches the floor, it's an illegal dribble.

It that were strictly true, the case of a player tossing the ball in the air while not moving the feet would also be an illegal dribble. However, that play only becomes a violation of the player moves their feet between throwing and catching the ball.

I think this case really falls between the two rules (travel and illegal dribble) and is judged to be an unintended action and is arbitrarily lumped with one of the two rules by declaration since neither really cover it exactly.

[Rob1968]

I tend to agree with Camron, that the situation is in between the two rules -- traveling and double dribble. 4-15-1 defines a dribble as "... bats (batting) or pushes (pushing) the ball "to the floor" and in the case of a player catching the ball before it hits the floor, the basic definition of a dribble has not been met.
Also, 4-15-3 defines the manner in which a dribble is started, and uses the same qualifier "to the floor", which indicates that if the ball does not strike the floor, a dribble has not been started. Thus, to toss the ball, and catch it before it hits the floor, cannot be a dribble, nor could it be a double dribble, to do so, after the player had already ended a legal dribble.
Then, we have the definition of traveling with an integral part of the travleing definition refering to a player "holding the ball." So, a player tossing the ball into the air, after having established a pivot foot, and then moving that pivot foot before catching the ball, must not be a travleing violation, by the strict reading of 4-44.
We know that we would call the violation. But whether we clasify it as an illegal dribble, or a travel becomes a case of semantics.
(Isn't it ineresting how off-season discussions lend themselves to such thoughts and discussions?)