Dead ball passing runners, runs scoring

[mikebran]

Play: Bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter hits over the fence HR. R3 jogs, R1 admires hit, and hard running BR touches and rounds 1st and passes R1 between 1st and 2nd. AT THE TIME of the passing R3 has not reached home.

Is this a time play? "That's passing, that runner is OUT!" and the 3rd out and no runs score? Since R3 has not touched.

Or is there a rule reason to score runs? How many?

[mrm21711]

Yes it is a time play.

At the time the runner passes the runner, that runner is declared out.

[greymule]

If BR rounded 1B and passed the runner after a base on balls, BR would still be out, but the run, even if it scored after the out, would still count.

[Delaware Blue]

Under Rule 7.04(b), the run should score even if the BR is declared out before R3 touches the plate. Since the BR "forced" R3 to advance, his run should score.

7.04 Each runner, other than the batter, may without liability to be put out, advance one base when (b)The batter's advance without liability to be put out forces the runner to vacate his base, or when the batter hits a fair ball that touches another runner or the umpire before such ball has been touched by, or has passed a fielder, if the runner is forced to advance; ... If such a runner, forced to advance, is put out for the third out before a preceding runner, also forced to advance, touches home plate, the run shall score. Play. Two out, bases full, batter walks but runner from second is overzealous and runs past third base toward home and is tagged out on a throw by the catcher. Even though two are out, the run would score on the theory that the run was forced home by the base on balls and that all the runners needed to do was proceed and touch the next base.

[Edited by Delaware Blue on Feb 13th, 2005 at 08:03 PM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Delaware Blue
If such a runner, forced to advance, is put out for the third out before a preceding runner, also forced to advance, touches home plate, the run shall score

Note that there's often a difference between "put out" (an act by the defense) and "declared out" (a violation by the offense noted by the umpire)

[mikebran]

Wow... That is fantastic. I asked, and there it is. Thanks so much... and I hope that (whoever) noticed this is not a time play. I'm disappointed I didn't find this myself. The forum works!

SO PER MY ORIGINAL PLAY.. you would score one run on this? That is, of course logical, but if you score ONE run, what is the reason that you don't also score R2... (and even R1)?



[QUOTE]Originally posted by Delaware Blue
[B]Under Rule 7.04(b), the run should score even if the BR is declared out before R3 touches the plate. Since the BR "forced" R3 to advance, his run should score.

[Delaware Blue]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bob jenkins

Note that there's often a difference between "put out" (an act by the defense) and "declared out" (a violation by the offense noted by the umpire)

I agree. There is a difference between being put out and declared out. In either case (the base on balls cited in the rule or the home run in the original post), the runner or BR reaches the awarded base and touches it prior to either being put out or declared out beyond that base. In both cases, the runner and batter-runner touched the base necessary to "force" the preceding runner to score. For the intent of the rule, I do not believe there is a distinction. But there may be. I haven't found a professional interpretation that would contradict the application of 7.04(b) during the dead ball situation as originally posted. If there is, I'd be interested in reading it since I'm always willing to learn.

[Rich Ives]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikebran
Wow... That is fantastic. I asked, and there it is. Thanks so much... and I hope that (whoever) noticed this is not a time play. I'm disappointed I didn't find this myself. The forum works!

SO PER MY ORIGINAL PLAY.. you would score one run on this? That is, of course logical, but if you score ONE run, what is the reason that you don't also score R2... (and even R1)?

Originally posted by Delaware Blue
Under Rule 7.04(b), the run should score even if the BR is declared out before R3 touches the plate. Since the BR "forced" R3 to advance, his run should score.

You are only forced one base (to make room for the BR at first) - after that all bets are off.

[Edited by Rich Ives on Feb 15th, 2005 at 09:33 AM]

[dddunn3d]

What if BR passes R1 between 2B and 3B? The easy case is two runs score if both preceeding runners(R3/R2) have advanced to home before the time of passing. But does only one run score if R2 has yet to touch home?

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by dddunn3d
What if BR passes R1 between 2B and 3B? The easy case is two runs score if both preceeding runners(R3/R2) have advanced to home before the time of passing. But does only one run score if R2 has yet to touch home?

Only those runners who have touched home at the time of the passing score.

[mcrowder]

dddd - in this case, BR is not forced to second, and before passing a runner could have, if further action required him to (R2 stopped on 3rd, R1 retreating toward 2nd) touch 2nd and retreat all the way back to 1st.

The only run that is FORCED to score is R3 on third - the rest WOULD be timing-based.

[dddunn3d]

Here's the reason I asked this seemingly easy question:

FED casebook, 8.4.2.N - The bases are loaded with one out. B5 hits a home run over the fence. However, he passes R3 after rounding first. R3 misses second base while advancing to home.
Ruling: B5 is out at the point he passes R3. Upon proper defensive appeal, R3 is called out at the end of playing action by the umpire. Two runs score. B5, being declared out for passing R3, removed the force situation on R3 at second base.

I know that this is not the original situation under discussion here. But the phrase "B5 is out at the point he passes R3" catches my interest. In this casebook sitch, as well as in our discussion, the force is removed at 2B when the BR passes the preceeding runner between 1B and 2B. Following this pattern, keeping in mind that a home run is actually a four-base award to the batter and all runners, and applying this ruling which defines when a BR is out for passing, I contend that two runners are actually forced to home when such passing occurs between 2B and 3B, and likewise three are forced when the passing occurs between 3B and home. The forces are not removed until the BR is called out for passing, and if the BR has successfully reached 2B then he has, by that action, forced R2 to home. The general implication is that forces cannot be removed retro-actively.

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by dddunn3d
Here's the reason I asked this seemingly easy question:

FED casebook, 8.4.2.N - The bases are loaded with one out. B5 hits a home run over the fence. However, he passes R3 after rounding first. R3 misses second base while advancing to home.
Ruling: B5 is out at the point he passes R3. Upon proper defensive appeal, R3 is called out at the end of playing action by the umpire. Two runs score. B5, being declared out for passing R3, removed the force situation on R3 at second base.

I know that this is not the original situation under discussion here. But the phrase "B5 is out at the point he passes R3" catches my interest. In this casebook sitch, as well as in our discussion, the force is removed at 2B when the BR passes the preceeding runner between 1B and 2B. Following this pattern, keeping in mind that a home run is actually a four-base award to the batter and all runners, and applying this ruling which defines when a BR is out for passing, I contend that two runners are actually forced to home when such passing occurs between 2B and 3B, and likewise three are forced when the passing occurs between 3B and home. The forces are not removed until the BR is called out for passing, and if the BR has successfully reached 2B then he has, by that action, forced R2 to home. The general implication is that forces cannot be removed retro-actively.

If the force is removed no one is forced anywhere. They could retreat to their original bases. As the BR is out in this play, all forces are removed.

Even if not out, the BR touching 2nd (or 3rd) doesn't force anything more than the original one base because he could retreat to 1st, freeing the others to retreat.

[dddunn3d]

Yes, I agree that these sitchs are timing plays. I was just wondering if FED may be starting down another ill-advised road.

[greymule]

Of course, this was long ago, so who knows what the rule was, but I believe that Lou Gehrig, with two outs and runners on 1B and 3B, hit a ball over the CF fence and somehow passed the runner from 1B between 2B and 3B. I think they counted the first run only (which makes sense).