Passing ball to self

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Toren

This reminds me of a question a coached asked me in the Spring. After a game, his team had been playing in the other gym, he asked me: If player A1 saves the ball from going out of bounds and then runs inbounds and is the first to catch the ball. Is this legal?

The play is legal. There's a case play under 7.1. Take a look.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The play is legal. There's a case play under 7.1. Take a look.

That's the one.

Perfect. Thank you.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The play is legal. There's a case play under 7.1. Take a look.

Bball ref: So you are saying it is always legal??? So if a guy goes to save the ball and cups it in a controlled manner and gently tosses it back onto the floor, re-establishes himself on the floor, that is legal, under HS rules is what I'm asking. I definitely believe it is legal if a player just bats/smacks the ball (no control) and comes back onto the floor and is the first to touch bc he had never controlled the ball.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Bball ref: So you are saying it is always legal??? So if a guy goes to save the ball and cups it in a controlled manner and gently tosses it back onto the floor, re-establishes himself on the floor, that is legal, under HS rules is what I'm asking. I definitely believe it is legal if a player just bats/smacks the ball (no control) and comes back onto the floor and is the first to touch bc he had never controlled the ball.

Yes it is legal if A1 has not used his dribble yet. No different than if A1 is standing by himself and throws the ball in front him and goes to retrieve it after it bounces. If he had not used his dribble it is legal, if has already used his dribble than you have an illegal dribble.

[Rob1968]

It seems we're addressing several different situations in this thread. When A1 throws the ball and moves his pivot foot to catch the ball before it hits the floor, it is considered to be traveling, 4.44.3 D (b), because the ball did not touch the floor, therefore the toss of the ball doesn't meet the definition of the start of a dribble, 4-15-3. Yes, it is a vague, (actually not mentioned) part of the travel rule, but understood and accepted universally, that even though A1 is not holding the ball, during the movement of the pivot foot, it is traveling, to throw the ball and then catch it after moving the pivot foot, and before the ball touches the floor, or another player, or his own backbourd. Hence, the description of "passing the ball to oneself", is illegal. (Of course, we get into the facet of whether the toss of the ball was judged by the covering official to be a valid shot attempt, but that is yet another adjunct to the discussion.)
When the ball is again controlled by A1, after the ball has hit the floor, the element of whether A1 had used his dribble, before the toss, comes into consideration, in judging whether the actions constitute a double dribble. 7.1.1 considers that the ball hits the floor, inbounds, before A1 again controls it.
Although the following scenario is highly unlikely, it may illustrate the differences noted above: Supposing that A1 leaps in the air, catches the ball that was headed out-of-bounds, tosses it high enough so that after A1 lands out-of-bounds, he recovers and returns inbounds and then catches the ball, before it hits the floor. Is there a violation? In my thoughts, because A1 was airborne when he caught the ball, and threw it back over the playing surface, there would be no violation. However, if A1 had a foot or feet touching the playing surface and tossed the ball high enough so that after his momentum carried him out-of-bounds, he recovered, re-established himself inbounds, and then caught the ball before it hit the playing surface, we would consider his actions to be traveling, as expressed above.
Ah, the minutia of it all . . .

[MiamiWadeCounty]

Yes, it is a vague, (actually not mentioned) part of the travel rule, but understood and accepted universally, that even though A1 is not holding the ball, during the movement of the pivot foot, it is traveling, to throw the ball and then catch it after moving the pivot foot, and before the ball touches the floor, or another player, or his own backboard.

Yes, it's an illegal play. But the rules book isn't well written. The case book may ruled it as traveling, but the traveling rule is too vague to support the ruling. And some of these folks say that the correct ruling is a double dribble and that the ruling was incorrectly changed by a dumb bimbo.

[MiamiWadeCounty]

Supposing that A1 leaps in the air, catches the ball that was headed out-of-bounds, tosses it high enough so that after A1 lands out-of-bounds, he recovers and returns inbounds and then catches the ball, before it hits the floor. Is there a violation? In my thoughts, because A1 was airborne when he caught the ball, and threw it back over the playing surface, there would be no violation. However, if A1 had a foot or feet touching the playing surface and tossed the ball high enough so that after his momentum carried him out-of-bounds, he recovered, re-established himself inbounds, and then caught the ball before it hit the playing surface, we would consider his actions to be traveling, as expressed above.

Dribble
Art. 3. During a dribble, the ball may be batted into the air, provided that it
is permitted to strike the playing court one or more times before the ball is
touched again with either hand.

According to this rule, I pretty sure that's an illegal dribble violation in both situation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Bball ref: So you are saying it is always legal??? So if a guy goes to save the ball and cups it in a controlled manner and gently tosses it back onto the floor, re-establishes himself on the floor, that is legal, under HS rules is what I'm asking. I definitely believe it is legal if a player just bats/smacks the ball (no control) and comes back onto the floor and is the first to touch bc he had never controlled the ball.

Yes, it's always legal. The original question concerned whether a player could save a ball from going OOB, go OOB himself and then return and be the first touch the ball. Yes he can.

Now, the play you describe is legal. However, if he controls the ball, throws it back inbounds, returns and catches the ball, he cannot legally dribble the ball, as he has essentially already used his dribble.