Throw-in spot

[rockyroad]

Camron, you conveniently left out the last part of Ar. 2 which both Bob and I have posted - and that is what makes your previous statement wrong.

Nevada - the violation (once the shot has left the hands) is called because the ball did not hit the "rim". That is the spot of the violation so that is where the ball should be put in play, imho.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The rule doesn't say "ball location" it says "location of the violation."

When A1 inbounds the ball and it bounces on the court, then goes OOB untouched, the ball is brought back to the original throw in spot -- because that's the spot of the violation; it doesn't go to the "ball location."

I agree. However, you fail to appreciate that this is precisely my point. The ball didn't violate. The player who threw it did. So where is that player located? Same rationale as the throw-in violation.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Nevada - the violation (once the shot has left the hands) is called because the ball did not hit the "rim". That is the spot of the violation so that is where the ball should be put in play, imho.

And precisely where is that spot? Some point directly beneath the location of the ball in flight? What if the try is from 3/4 court and was partially blocked such that it eventually lands at the top of the key outside of the 3pt arc? What if the shot is passes completely over the backboard after the shot clock horn sounded? Do you inbound at the same place?

Or are you saying that the location of the ring is the spot of the violation because the ball failed to get there? I don't think I've ever heard anyone advocate that position.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Camron, you conveniently left out the last part of Ar. 2 which both Bob and I have posted - and that is what makes your previous statement wrong.

Go back and look at what you wrote. You wrote that the ball has to hit the rim before the horn sounds. That is incorrect any way you slice it. You may have meant something else, but that is not what you wrote.

I only said that the release had to be before the horn. The ball can hit the rim after the horn.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

The violation is for the shot not hitting the ring or flange (the rim) before the shot clock horn sounds. Since the ball was in the air but did not hit the ring, the spot nearest the violation should be the endline.

[rockyroad]

Camron - not what I had meant to say at all. My bad. Guess I need to proofread better before I hit "post".

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I agree. However, you fail to appreciate that this is precisely my point. The ball didn't violate. The player who threw it did. So where is that player located? Same rationale as the throw-in violation..

That's not clear at all from the way the rule is written. One says (I think) something like "release the ball on a throw-in so it's touched on the court" and the other says something like "the try fails to hit the ring." If the latter was worded "fails to release a try that hits the ring" I'd agree.

If A1's try didn't hit the ring and went OOB (before the shot clock horn sounded), the inbounds spot would be where the ball went OOB, not where the try was attempted.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If A1's try didn't hit the ring and went OOB (before the shot clock horn sounded), the inbounds spot would be where the ball went OOB, not where the try was attempted.

That's because the ball contacted the court. That makes the OOB spot clear. The case we are discussing involves the violation occurring while the ball is still in flight.

The throw-in violation is an exception to the ball last contacting the court concept only because it is a throw-in and it is clearly defined where the subsequent throw-in will occur should a violation take place during the throw-in.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's because the ball contacted the court. That makes the OOB spot clear. The case we are discussing involves the violation occurring while the ball is still in flight.

The throw-in violation is an exception to the ball last contacting the court concept only because it is a throw-in and it is clearly defined where the subsequent throw-in will occur should a violation take place during the throw-in.

I'm still going with whenever a shot is taken and is an air ball with the shot clock expired, it will be a baseline throw in because that is where the ball missed and is coming down, which violated the provisions. If it is a half court shot and is tipped and lands at the 3 point line, then couldn't the throw in be on the sideline??

[Kelvin green]

So here is my take, and I would use the common sense approach

The violation does not occur at the point the shot is taken. I would take the ball closest to where the ball ws when I blew my whistle.

The ball is not dead on a shot... It continues until the ball hits the floor, anoth player. Someplace where it did not get to the rim. Seems that is where th ball is dead and the violation occurs. This seems pretty straightforward to me. So I am going to go nearest spot to where the violation gets called because it is closest to where the violation happened.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

So here is my take, and I would use the common sense approach

The violation does not occur at the point the shot is taken. I would take the ball closest to where the ball ws when I blew my whistle.

The ball is not dead on a shot... It continues until the ball hits the floor, anoth player. Someplace where it did not get to the rim. Seems that is where th ball is dead and the violation occurs. This seems pretty straightforward to me. So I am going to go nearest spot to where the violation gets called because it is closest to where the violation happened.

I can agree. This is what I have been trying to think of and express.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

So here is my take, and I would use the common sense approach

The violation does not occur at the point the shot is taken. I would take the ball closest to where the ball ws when I blew my whistle.

The ball is not dead on a shot... It continues until the ball hits the floor, anoth player. Someplace where it did not get to the rim. Seems that is where th ball is dead and the violation occurs. This seems pretty straightforward to me. So I am going to go nearest spot to where the violation gets called because it is closest to where the violation happened.

What is in red is incorrect by rule. The try ends when it is clear that it will not be successful and that is well before the ball strikes the floor. Now if you look at the NCAA rules for the location of a ball in flight, you will find that it is considered to be at the place where it last contacted the court or was touched by a player. It is not simply a point straight below where it was in flight. That is what you are failing to appreciate.

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

I'm still going with whenever a shot is taken and is an air ball with the shot clock expired, it will be a baseline throw in because that is where the ball missed and is coming down, which violated the provisions. If it is a half court shot and is tipped and lands at the 3 point line, then couldn't the throw in be on the sideline??

Please read the paragraph above. You are thinking the same way as that poster.

[APG]

You may be correct rule book wise Nevada (and that's a big maybe), but I feel like Kelvin's and NCHSAA's way is the accepted practice. I've never seen an NCAA game where the officials put the throw-in spot in the backcourt on a missed heave from the backcourt that didn't hit the rim. It is almost always put at the nearest spot where the ball was physically located when the whistle was blown.

I think until the NCAA comes out with a directive that supports your position, most will continue to inbound it like they have and quite frankly, it makes more sense to me.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

You may be correct rule book wise Nevada (and that's a big maybe), but I feel like Kelvin's and NCHSAA's way is the accepted practice. I've never seen an NCAA game where the officials put the throw-in spot in the backcourt on a missed heave from the backcourt that didn't hit the rim. It is almost always put at the nearest spot where the ball was physically located when the whistle was blown.

I think until the NCAA comes out with a directive that supports your position, most will continue to inbound it like they have and quite frankly, it makes more sense to me.

Basically what I said 5 days ago on page 1 of this thread.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Scrapper's interp may be technically correct but I can say I've never had a game where the throw-in was brought back out to a designated spot nearest the origin of the shot.

I need to pay attention to some of occurrences on TV games and see what they are doing. Really had never put much thought into it before this discussion. Guess it would make a big difference if it occurred in the waning seconds of a close game.

Do we have any plays readily available on YouTube involving shot clock violations and the subsequent throw-in?

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What is in red is incorrect by rule. The try ends when it is clear that it will not be successful and that is well before the ball strikes the floor. Now if you look at the NCAA rules for the location of a ball in flight, you will find that it is considered to be at the place where it last contacted the court or was touched by a player. It is not simply a point straight below where it was in flight. That is what you are failing to appreciate.


Please read the paragraph above. You are thinking the same way as that poster.

The shot-clock horn does not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle. By this time the ball will be close to the floor if not already in contact. "Clear that it will not be successful", what exactly does that mean? A ball that is shot 50 feet into the air from half court, is probably not going to be successful, but how do I know for sure? Unless I wait until it comes down and strikes the floor or is below ring level, which by the time a whistle is given the ball is most likely contacting the floor at that point.

[NCHSAA]

Check these out:

1) Board 41 Nassau County New York
2) http://ds062.k12.sd.us/activities%20...clockrules.pdf

They read:

1) "A-1 shoots and misses rim, horn, shot clock violation, ball to Team B at endline"

2) "If the try is unsuccessful and the ball doesn’t hit the rim or flange you have a shot clock violation, a whistle is sounded by the referee and Team B is awarded a throw-in on the end line"

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

The shot-clock horn does not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle. By this time the ball will be close to the floor if not already in contact. "Clear that it will not be successful", what exactly does that mean? A ball that is shot 50 feet into the air from half court, is probably not going to be successful, but how do I know for sure? Unless I wait until it comes down and strikes the floor or is below ring level, which by the time a whistle is given the ball is most likely contacting the floor at that point.

The whistle does not make the ball dead on volations; a basic fundamental. At this point, the whistle is just recognition of a dead ball, which happened while the ball was in the air.

I'm not arguing accepted practice, but it seems to me the rule itself is clear that the ball should be put in play from the spot nearest the point from where it was shot.

And your references above are not official; they are local interpretations. It's like quoting a local beat cop's interpretation of search and seizure laws.