Throw-in spot

[rockyroad]

The violation is for the shot not hitting the ring or flange (the rim) before the shot clock horn sounds. Since the ball was in the air but did not hit the ring, the spot nearest the violation should be the endline.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

The violation is for the shot not hitting the ring or flange (the rim) before the shot clock horn sounds.

No it isn't...it is for not releasing a shot before the shot clok horn sounds. The part about hitting the rim is to give it a concrete way to define if the shot was an adequate attempt vs. an attempt to skirt the shot clock rule.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Since the ball was in the air but did not hit the ring, the spot nearest the violation should be the endline.

Just to play devil's advocate...

What if the "shot" doesn't get anywhere close to the rim.....maybe it was a full court heave that, due to the shooter being off balance, that landed at the top of the key or at the division line.

Also, what if the thrown ball was a pass to a player near the rim (alley-oop) and the horn sounds just after the pass was released.

It seems that the defensive team should gain possession after the violation at the point where the other team had legally advanced the ball before the violation.

Also, IIRC, there have been rulings that the violation occurs retroactively to the point where the horn sounds....not when a shot misses...a delayed violation. Those cases, IIRC, related to the game clock status in the end game when the shot clock expires with little game time remaining and provide that the game clock is restored to the time when the shot clock expired.

If I'm remember that case correctly, that would support that the violation has already occurred before the ball nears the rim....perhaps just after the release.

What effect might that have on the location?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

...Also, IIRC, there have been rulings that the violation occurs retroactively to the point where the horn sounds....not when a shot misses...a delayed violation. Those cases, IIRC, related to the game clock status in the end game when the shot clock expires with little game time remaining and provide that the game clock is restored to the time when the shot clock expired.

If I'm remember that case correctly, that would support that the violation has already occurred before the ball nears the rim....perhaps just after the release.

What effect might that have on the location?

AR 33 does not support this assertion.

"A.R. 33. There are 37 seconds (men) or 32 seconds (women) on the game clock and 35 seconds (men) or 30 seconds (women) on the shot clock. Team A uses time before A1 releases the ball for a try for goal. After A1 releases the ball, the shot-clock horn sounds. The ball does not strike the ring or flange. The officials call a shot-clock violation. At the same time as the official’s whistle, the game clock sounds, signaling that the period has ended. Shall the official put two seconds back on the game clock?

RULING: No. The shot-clock horn sounded at the expiration of the shot-clock period; however, this does not stop play unless recognized by the official’s whistle. The official’s whistle for the shot-clock violation stopped play. The expiration of playing time was indicated by the timer’s signal. This signal shall terminate player activity (Rule 2-10.14). The period ended with the violation. However, in games with a 10th-of-a-second game clock display and an official courtside television monitor, when in the judgment of the official time has elapsed from when he or she signaled for the clock to be stopped to when the game clock stopped, the monitor may be used to determine the correct time to be put back on the game clock. In games without an official courtside television monitor, the official is required to have definite information relative to the time involved to correct the time elapsed.
(Rule 2-13.2.c.3, 4-62, 2-10.14, 2-11.9, 5-10.1.c, 5-10.2.a, and
6-5.1.d)"

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No it isn't...it is for not releasing a shot before the shot clok horn sounds. The part about hitting the rim is to give it a concrete way to define if the shot was an adequate attempt vs. an attempt to skirt the shot clock rule.

You're wrong...

Art. 2. It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s
hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time or a try does not
subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.

Once the shot has left the shooter's hands before the buzzer sounds, the violation then becomes a matter of hitting the "rim" or not...so in the OP, the violation was for not hitting the rim...so the spot closest that violation is the endline.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

You're wrong...

Art. 2. It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s
hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time or a try does not
subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.

Once the shot has left the shooter's hands before the buzzer sounds, the violation then becomes a matter of hitting the "rim" or not...so in the OP, the violation was for not hitting the rim...so the spot closest that violation is the endline.

How am I wrong...what I highlighted in the rule is precisely what I said.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

You're wrong...

Art. 2. It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s
hand before the expiration of the allotted shot-clock time or a try does not
subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.

Once the shot has left the shooter's hands before the buzzer sounds, the violation then becomes a matter of hitting the "rim" or not...so in the OP, the violation was for not hitting the rim...so the spot closest that violation is the endline.

I agree with rockyroad that this is what the violation is, but I disagree with his stating that the closest spot is the endline. What if the try is an airball? The violation occurs prior to the ball striking the floor because the try has already ended. So the ball's location is not at a point on the court near the basket. The ball is still in the air and retains the status of when it last touched a player or when it last contacted the court. I'm going with the nearest OOB spot to where the try was released.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I agree with rockyroad on what the violation is, but I disagree with his stating that the closest spot is the endline. What if the try is an airball? The violation occurs prior to the ball striking the floor because the try has already ended. So the ball's location is not at a point on the court near the basket. The ball is still in the air and retains the status of when it last touched a player or when it last contacted the court. I'm going with the nearest OOB spot to where the try was released.

The rule doesn't say "ball location" it says "location of the violation."

When A1 inbounds the ball and it bounces on the court, then goes OOB untouched, the ball is brought back to the original throw in spot -- because that's the spot of the violation; it doesn't go to the "ball location."

[rockyroad]

Camron, you conveniently left out the last part of Ar. 2 which both Bob and I have posted - and that is what makes your previous statement wrong.

Nevada - the violation (once the shot has left the hands) is called because the ball did not hit the "rim". That is the spot of the violation so that is where the ball should be put in play, imho.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Camron, you conveniently left out the last part of Ar. 2 which both Bob and I have posted - and that is what makes your previous statement wrong.

Go back and look at what you wrote. You wrote that the ball has to hit the rim before the horn sounds. That is incorrect any way you slice it. You may have meant something else, but that is not what you wrote.

I only said that the release had to be before the horn. The ball can hit the rim after the horn.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

The violation is for the shot not hitting the ring or flange (the rim) before the shot clock horn sounds. Since the ball was in the air but did not hit the ring, the spot nearest the violation should be the endline.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The rule doesn't say "ball location" it says "location of the violation."

When A1 inbounds the ball and it bounces on the court, then goes OOB untouched, the ball is brought back to the original throw in spot -- because that's the spot of the violation; it doesn't go to the "ball location."

I agree. However, you fail to appreciate that this is precisely my point. The ball didn't violate. The player who threw it did. So where is that player located? Same rationale as the throw-in violation.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Nevada - the violation (once the shot has left the hands) is called because the ball did not hit the "rim". That is the spot of the violation so that is where the ball should be put in play, imho.

And precisely where is that spot? Some point directly beneath the location of the ball in flight? What if the try is from 3/4 court and was partially blocked such that it eventually lands at the top of the key outside of the 3pt arc? What if the shot is passes completely over the backboard after the shot clock horn sounded? Do you inbound at the same place?

Or are you saying that the location of the ring is the spot of the violation because the ball failed to get there? I don't think I've ever heard anyone advocate that position.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I agree. However, you fail to appreciate that this is precisely my point. The ball didn't violate. The player who threw it did. So where is that player located? Same rationale as the throw-in violation..

That's not clear at all from the way the rule is written. One says (I think) something like "release the ball on a throw-in so it's touched on the court" and the other says something like "the try fails to hit the ring." If the latter was worded "fails to release a try that hits the ring" I'd agree.

If A1's try didn't hit the ring and went OOB (before the shot clock horn sounded), the inbounds spot would be where the ball went OOB, not where the try was attempted.